I think that may have been my favorite post of yours that I’ve read.

The question should not be, “was someone else born with a speck in their eye”? But instead, “what am I doing with the plank that I was born with in my eye”?

That old carpenter could sure cut to the quick.

beautifuly written.
thanks for your honesty.
i have a lot to say here . . . this is probably just a start.

first of all, a guy came to our church recently who is a missionary to people who deal with porn. he even goes to porn shows and sets up a booth (but not in a crazy fundie way . . . porn shows actually invite him to come because they like him) . . . check out his website at http://www.xxxchurch.com very cool stuff.

on to the question of nature vs nurture regarding homosexuality. i don’t know about being born one way or another . . . i know about predispositions and vulnerabilities. i know that some people have addictive personalities and some people do not. i know that some people are more “naturally” angry than others or are pathological liars and can’t stop themselves. i have a friend who, based on the way she was raised, did not surprise me one bit when she started experimenting with homosexuality. she was not given a good example of what a healthy love relationship looked like, she had bad experiences with “good, christian boyfriends” and was a feminist. predisposed by her environment? maybe.
then, i have read books about how we are altering our genetics. the chemicals we dump into the environment basically act like synthetic estrogen once they enter our bodies. nowadays, everyone is born “estrogen dominent.” studies have shown entire groups of animals being born female after chemicals spills, etc. there are human beings out there, born with all the “parts” to be one gender, but their DNA says they are the opposite gender. so they are raised as if they are what they look like and later choose the lifestyle of what they really are underneath (ie born with a penis, but genetics say xx, later they choose to live as a woman) . . . these things really do happen.
so, some of this, we are doing to ourselves and to our children (genetically, chemically, behaviorally, etc). gives a new meaning to “the sins of the father being visited on the next 5 generations”

all that said: we are broken. we do it to ourselves. our parents did it to themselves and to us and we do it to ourselves and our children . . . it is a cycle going all the way back to adam and eve . . . we need a savior. we need help.

homosexuality is listed in the bible alongside disobeying parents, greed and lies and other sins . . . so why give it more weight than these other sins? why spend so much energy on this behavior while ignoring the planks in our own eyes?

in closing, at a book reading i attended with don miller speaking he said (in response to a question about homosexuals adopting children): “i think that a commmitted homosexual couple could raise a child in a loving environment better than most people in america.”

feel free to delete my comment if it doesn’t fit into the paremeters you set out . . . no offense will be taken.

none taken. i’m glad to finally have some conversation going.

i agree. there is a whole messed up in culture that only compounds an already tough issue.

i hate to even use an example like this, but we were watching The Family Stone, a recent movie that has come out (Luke Wilson, Claire Danes, Rachel McAdams, Craig T. Nelson, Diane Keaton - all some of my favorite actors). And there was this really great, intense scene in the middle of a Christmas Eve dinner. I hate to bring it up and drop it, but you gotta see the movie and the scene to get the idea I’m talking about. i say all of that to say, everyone watch the movie and give me your feedback on the scene. the way diane keaton (the mother) responds to her son and his partner, has got to be the way Jesus responds. the way he feels. deep, deep love and care and emotion. keaton tells her son that he’s more normal than any other a-hole-with-s’s out there.

I’ve heard that Don Miller quote and that was kind of in the back of my mind as well. granted, i don’t know many same sex couples. but i am quite sure that there are plenty out there who are just as qualified if not more fit to be parents and partners than there some heterosexual couples.

on top of all that, i just don’t think you can legislate morality.

and on top of all that, and i’m not saying this is my position, just throwing it out there. that when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorah, it had less to do with loving homosexual relationships and more to do with people not living the way of God. and had more to do with the punishment of extreme perversion. in that day, i would imagine there weren’t many loving same sex marriages. most happened behind the scenes. or w/ temple prostitutes. in these cases, extreme perversion happened. perhaps God’s actions were in response to this. not saying that was the case because i’m not an old testament scholar. maybe i’ll think about that some more before i say anything else.

i just don’t see how we’ve somehow elevated this “topic” while maintaining quiet on others. my american struggle with consumerism is one that most Christians in other countries would deem immoral. so which is the greater offense?

[...] Josh is tackling the whole homosexuality issue. His pdf reminds me of a nice quip from Tony Jones. Tony said when someone asks him about homosexuality, he responds ‘Which homosexual?’ or ‘Who?’. Josh does well to suggest that the ‘theological’ issue can not be separated from the relational aspect. [...]

yeah . . . i am a slave to fashion and i think this is more of an issue for me than sexual sin . . .

i’ll definitely see that flick.

my history professor used to say “you can’t legislate morality, but the problem is all laws are someone’s morality being legislated.”

and usually its the ones with power who get the have their morals imposed on everyone else.

i was trying to explain this to my little sister one day when we were talking about this bill that was recently passed in oregon defining marriage as something between a man and a woman (a bill i voted against). i was telling her, “why are we imposing our moral standards on someone who has not accepted them for themselves? we can tell people why we choose to live the way we live, but we cannot hold them to our standards if they have not chosen this life for themselves. it is one thing if you see your christian brother or sister doing something wrong and you choose to talk to them about it in a loving way. it is a completely different thing if you are talking to a friend who has not chosen to live their lives the way jesus has taught and exampled . . . you can not hold them up to this standard. it isn’t their life-choice . . .
yes, they are broken. but so are we. i would just applaud them for having any sort of moral standard for their lives at all. most non-christians i know, live their lives more solidly based on their morals than most christians i know. my N-C friends actually care about humanity and animals and the earth and social justice . . . the Cs seem as if they could care less and just get caught up in the bickering . . .

ok, i am starting to generalize and get a little stereotypical. sorry.

but am i making sense?

it’s not like the american muslims are trying to pass a bill making all women in america wear headcoverings . . . so why are the christians trying to legally force all americans to act like christians rather than love them as individuals and show them christ relationally?

it just doesn’t make sense.

Awesome Josh! You are my only christian friend to actually say anything about homosexuality other than condeming it. And I totally agree with Jason’s comment. I could be off base with my beliefs, but this is what I think.
I feel I was born with certian predispositions to sin… food addiction, rage, etc. My culture and my family had a lot to do with cultivaiting these predispositions as well, but I think they were part of me right from the start. When I am asked this question the first thing that floods my mind is all the sin in my life..and the next thing I think about is who am I to judge. Do I think its a sin, yes. But I think we all struggle with sin, especially me, so who am I to judge? I feel rather than to point fingers, lay blame, or lead my “homosexual” friends through a sinners prayer I should love them where they are at, walk in life with them and share my struggles with them… just like I do with all my other firends. Its not my job to sweep the sin out of their life, if that was the case and I treated all my friends the same (straight or homosexual) then I would never get anything done. And I really don’t want to spend time seeking out sin in other people’s lives, I want to see the good in them. I pretty much have enough sin in my own life to seek out and focus on fixing!
The other thing I always think about is what about the alcoholism gene? Most conservatives I’ve ran into think alcohol consumed in any way is a sin (which I think is silly), but most people agree addiction to any subtance (especially alcohol) is a sin. So, if you admit that the gene exists (which scientists have found) and people are born with a certain predisposition to become an alcoholic (i.e have sin in their life) then doesn’t that negate all the “God wouldn’t allow us to be born devients” agruements? Why aren’t conservatives out protesting the finding of this gene? I’ll tell you why, because “christians” love to rank sin (you know murder, then homosexuality, then whole bunch of other stuff, then gossip and little white lies being at the bottom of the list and oh so “insignificant”). And sick as this may sound alcoholism is more socially acceptable to most conservative christians than homosexuality. Which is what is wrong with christian conservatives. They have a little sin I like to call P-R-I-D-E and no where is the word gay in front of it and no rainbows are associated with it. No sir, pride is what makes conservative christions feel like their pet sins are alright to tolerate but the sins they rank “really bad” should be rooted out. Which is why if you are honest with yourself, and truely humble yourself before God and ask yourself this question, you’ll come right back to finding the plank in your own eye. Again I could be way off here, but its just my thoughts.

tabitha,
that’s an excellent point about muslims and headcoverings. and that conversation actually came up tonight and i have a whole bunch of things that are simmering under the surface on that. but you’re right. morality can’t be legislated. i mean it can. but it can only create external change. internal change happens in other ways. good stuff.

kimberly,
you like to rage? you seem pretty docile to me. but i agree, when you’re truly humble and wrestling with god, you always end up back on yourself dealing with your own planks.

yeah, there is a point where my muslim parallel breaks down, but still . . . there is much more to be said . . . i wish we lived in the same town and could sit down over a beer and dialogue. i heart blogging for just this opportunity (good conversations like this)!

Great post, JB. I’ve seen the family stone, and that scene at the dinner table is pretty amazing, the whole family is alittle more realistic than most movie families, or rather they actually put some thought into trying and make it seem real.

I don’t really have anything to add to the discussion, other than to say that keep on keepin’ on josh, I think the best advice I can give is from a 50 Cent song, with some altered lines: “and if they hate then let em hate and watch da money pile up.” Except, instead of money, insert hope, or vision, or faith, or whatever you like.

This rap side of Eric he’s starting to divulge is pretty interesting. I think I’d like every correlation from him to be based upon a 50 cent song for one week. I bet he could do it. I mean, did you see his radio station presets?

The eastern church has always viewed sin as sickness. This sickness is passed down to us from our parents, who got it from their parents. The Church is the (or should be) the spiritual hospital. The cure is received from the Great Physician. And we’re all sick. Everyone of us. Even when we don’t realize it. Thus the importance of self examinations. We should always be looking at ourselves and seeing how are sickness is manifesting itself. Is it in anger? Maybe. Is it in selfishness? Usually. Is it in lust? Possibly. Is it in pride? Always. The Fathers always tell us that pride is the last of the sins to be defeated. It’s a sneaky one that grabs you when your unaware. Even when your on the side of right, it can crop up in words you use, and tones you inflict.

All that being said, I agree with a lot of your post, josh. We all have sins that we need to weed out. We should never be the ones judging when we have so much to worry about in our own lives. We have forgotten to look at ourselves at the Chief of sinners of who needs God’s mercy most. People seem to think it’s ok to judge. They find verses and examples from scripture that shows it’s ok to do so. I would tend to think we need to lean on the side of mercy and compassion over judgmentalism and damnation.

All that being said… I come to the part of my ramble that might be against the status quo. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds as if your fine with homosexual lifestyle in general. We seem to be excusing it based on the fact that we typically are hypocrites by rampaging against homosexuality and not against the vices that plague our lives, but we tend to ignore. Is this a proper justification? Are we in the end speaking of practicing homosexuality, or are we referring mainly to those who have homosexual feelings, but don’t act on them?

Hmmm… I commented on this yesterday, but it is gone. Am I being censored?!? (wink) Just wanted to say, well done and great thoughts.

Peace,
Jamie

That’s an excellent question. Or your whole last paragraph for that matter. This is a really, really stick issue that I haven’t sorted out in my head yet so I would probably be best served by not adding my thoughts right now without coming up with some type of heresy.

But as I’m rereading through the narrative personal lenses the authors of Scripture wrote with and less as the robotically controlled authors that God used, I’m beginning to think about provisional theology. Which I know will be highly unsettling coming from the Orthodox perspective. And will sound like relativism without a good explanation. Which I don’t really have time to do right now and haven’t really had time to fully sit and think on it like I would like to making an informed suggestion.

I was less trying to answer the question of what is right and what is wrong and just attempting to recenter the conversation back to some of the cultural/political debate that is going on in regards to same-sex marriage. And why we have such a fascination with the question of homosexuality and not with other issues like the ones you mentioned.

I’m not using my sin as a cop-out for discussing perceived sin in others. I am however, suggesting that we could probably spend a whole of time discussing our own struggles and distortions without focusing on the perceived issues of someone else. Which I think is probably the way Jesus intended it to work anyway. Where we are more concerned about the planks in our own eyes than the specks in others. And where we are more concerned with serving others than we are with serving ourselves.

Again, that’s a really loose view of me and a pretty high view of God. That God is God and its for God to know and judge and sift and sort. And my job is to live my story knowing, judging, sifting, and sorting my life.

At some point, that last paragraph breaks down and the same gospel that subverts consumerism and pride and lust, also subverts other distortions. So I realize that there is a balance. I can’t rail against the things that bother me with church world and expect them to allow the gospel to subvert their understandings and priorities and then not allow it the same freedom to do so in those outside the church.

If you give me a couple of weeks, I think I’d like to try to respond to your question again, focusing more on whether homosexuality is sinful or not.

But for now, I was just attempting to get us to think about issues of original sin and whether or not someone could be born homosexual, which I am under the impression that the possibility certainly is still an open option for discussion.

jamie,
i sent you an email, but i can’t find your comment in the archives. and i know i didn’t moderate it. i’m sorry. i’m sure it was an excellent comment as always.

Josh, let me say, this is perhaps one of the topics in life I feel most passionate about. Your statements and those that responded to you brought up a lot of emotion in me. For those who aren’t familiar with my husband Mike and I, we are Josh and Anna’s friends from up north, where the world is a whole lot different from the south. However, this debate really isn’t any different here, just perhaps has more of us that are not on the conservative extreme side of thinking homosexuality means evil. I don’t want to get too lengthy, but would love to talk about this in July when we are present with each other.

When Mike and I met, he was more on the side of “the bible says it is wrong”. Then…. he met MANY and I mean many of my homosexual friends. I happened to attend college in a very gay friendly community. Mike has completely changed his thinking on this topic. It has also been helped by the pastor that we have come so incredibly close to that also feels that homosexuality is okay.

I wish I could convey the pain I feel at the stories that my homosexual friends have told me over what they deal with on a daily basis. It hurts me to the point of tears and heartache to see them suffer. Two of my lesbian friends had a commitment ceremony that was perhaps the most beautiful and loving experience I have ever been a part of. But, even though they are incredibly committed to each other, if one was seriously hurt in a car accident and in the hospital, the other has no right to even see her necessarily. This breaks my heart.

I work in a job that unfortunately has a lot of job security, the business of taking away kids after their parents harm them. The things I see on a daily basis are things no human should ever have to see or have done to them. The people that I deal with are heterosexual couples, I have never had a homosexual couple that I have come into contact with. These heterosexual couples are doing things I won’t even describe to you, as again they are deplorable.

I echo what has been said a few times in the response to your writing Josh, why do we spend so much time and effort telling others that the person they happen to love is “against the law”. The law of the government and of God. I can think of things that I see everyday that people could help speak out against that would be a whole lot more beneficial.

I leave you with something that has resonated in me since our pastor said it in church one sunday. You can come to church every single Sunday and the whole time be living your day to day life not as God would see fit, or you could never attend a church and be living your life as God would want you to. Which person are you?

Hope I wasn’t too lengthy and made some sort of sense!

josh,

i would tend toward the idea that one can be born homosexual. i also have no problem with non-christians having same sex marriages, or civil unions if you will. i echo what you and tabitha said when you said that you can’t legislate morality. that’s not our jobs as christians. we are meant to serve humanity as Christ serves and love no matter what. everyone, everywhere.

so that in a nutshell is my position. at least in regards to the homosexual outside of the church. i think we can all pretty much agree that we hate a lot of times what we feel is a hijacked christianity. it sucks when we get numbered among those we disagree with. and it sucks that christianity is first thought of as judgmental and self righteous, as opposed to compassionate and humble. and i think we can agree that’s not where we stand.

if i can redirect the conversation (and if i can’t , feel free to delete) i am more curious about thoughts on christian homosexuals. where do we stand there?

To answer your question, it is my thoughts at this particular time that you can be both homosexual and Christian. The following links might be helpful to look at. I’m going to try and post them next week, but if you want to go ahead and take a look, they’re really good.

In post 1, you hear the honest confessions of a homosexual Christian. In post 2, you hear some questions that kind of take on the simplistic answers that you typically get, which is right where I’m at when it comes to Sodom and Gomorah. I would add with Paul’s writings too but I’m sure our views of Scripture and inspiration are probably a bit different. Which for me is where most of this conversation should be directed. And post 3, has sort of a response to comments.

Anyway, it’s worth a read. And that probably provides a pretty good framework to answer your question and my position.

http://emergentvoyageurs.blog.com/478437/
http://emergentvoyageurs.blog.com/484662/
http://emergentvoyageurs.blog.com/489304/

sorry, i don’t think the wording of my question was very good. i agree that you can be both christian and have a homosexual orientation. my question was more to the extent of what does this mean in faith and practice for the christian homosexual? also just to clarify, i don’t think our views of scripture are too different. i believe in inspiration, but not robotic dictation. of course i also don’t believe that we should be interpreting scripture and forming doctrine, but should read scripture through the the lens of the Fathers and the Tradition of the Church. buuutt…that’s probably for another post.

ps: i actually followed jamie’s posts on the subject a few months back, and was actually thinking of directing you to them. alas, you beat me to it.

pps: are we the only ones with all the time in the world, to sit around and blog?

i know i’m probably commenting way too much, but this also kinda brings up the nature of sex. why sex? because ultimately that’s how comitted, two-person loving relationships express themselves. so what is sex ultimately for?

I think all the thoughts and discussion here is great. I just have one idea to throw out there to all of you who say that they oppose laws regulating same-sex marriages:

While noone can ever really control what another person really believes or does, shouldn’t it be right for Christian lawmakers and legislators to strive to model our laws after Christian morality- in order to set an example for a righteous lifestyle?

seth, good point on the sex thing. but one could argue that you don’t have to be heterosexual to experience that type of intimacy. i’m not saying i believe that or agree with that. but the point could certainly be made.

to answer your question what does it mean in faith and practice for a christian homosexual (man i hate these labels), i think that ultimately is up to them and the holy spirit to wrestle with and think about. as it is for me to wrestle with the holy spirit on what he speaks and stirs in my life.

clint,
i think that’s a really complicated question. as if Christian lawmakers would at all times know God’s intent and wouldn’t manipulate or twist their politics like everyone else. without stirring more controversy, what about somebody like President Bush. a christian striving to legislate and model our laws after Christian morality. but one could argue that war in some instances because there happens to be oil nearby, which causes death, destruction, and new kinds of oppression is not exactly a moral thing. or the inability to act and not to go to war when oppression and suffering are happening on just as large of scale (minus the oil) in sudan and other places is a lack of morality.

so i’m just saying that there are a lot of Christians (i being one of them) who don’t feel comfortable with the morality of some christian politicians.

i also would add that i think the called out community of God was never intended to create by force, the called out community of God. it’s an invitation to participate in and not a law to regulate.

look at Constantine and oppresive muslim cultures to name a few. you can’t regulate and force righteous living.

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I wonder why the church has focused on this issue instead of gossip, gluttony (guilty of that one), or a number of other sins.

I can’t speak to the situation anywhere else but in the U.S. I believe that Christians are confusing the Kingdom of God with Christian culture. They think that somehow they are defending Christ. Interesting that the God of the Universe needs a defense. I like the answer “which homosexual.” I believe that if we focus on loving people and introducing Jesus that we have to believe him when he says he is the “author and finisher” of our faith and that he will finish the good work he began.

I believe that homosexual activity is sin. I just don’t see any way around that in scripture. But I also know that Jesus tells me to take the beam out of my eye before I start trying to take the speck out of my brother’s. So I’ve decided to take that approach and pray for those who are struggling as I hope they will pray for me.

Very good post by the way.

You make a very valid point, Josh- of course we all have our flaws and vices and no politician is immune to sin or mistakes. But what can be said of a so-called Christian society that openly allows the propogation of a lifestyle that is damaging to the society itself?

I’m not advocating morality by force, I’m just saying that I believe it’s our mission to use the gifts and responsibility we’re given collectively to make positive changes in the world- lawmakers included.

I don’t need Christ’s salvation any less than any homosexual out there, but I think a large part of ministry is missing if we just say, “I understand that you’re struggling with this” and leave it at that.

Not that all sins aren’t equally evil in the eyes of God, but I believe homosexuality is a lifestyle that like alcoholism, like drug abuse, pulls apart the fabric of our society more than others.

I think it needs to be condemned as a sin, but with sensitivity, and compassion. No one is outside the reaches of Christ’s gift, but I believe that open acceptance without an attempt at rehabilitaion is a failing not on the part of the homosexual, but on ours.

I’m sorry this is so long, but I’ve seen too many churches welcome homosexuals with open arms and allow them to continue in their lifestyle without ever being convicted of their sin. They were allowed to believe that the relationships they were taking part in were righteous. It’s a failing of the Church I think, that in many ways we’ve become over-sensitive, and even afraid.

I’m just not sure how I see that homosexuality, when practiced in a loving and healthy way (and their are examples of this) is damaging to society itself?

What do you do with heterosexual marriages that are damaging to society?

There are good heterosexual marriages and bad ones. There are bad homosexual marriages and good ones.

What do you do with the good ones? The ones that promote and are a part of creating a healthy family and society?

Josh,

Thanks for linking to my posts on the topic. In fairness though, “Alex” is a Christian who has a homosexual orientation, but has never (and plans never) to engage in it as a lifestyle. The phrase “homosexual Christian” might suggest otherwise. Just a point of clarity.

Peace,
Jamie

Clint,

Let me ask you this: By your logic, would it not also, then, be the ultimate goal to legally end all religious practices other than Chrsitianity? Wouldn’t a Muslim marraige, in which the union is defined in terms irreconcilably with the Christian sacrament, be as offensive as gay marraige?

I would suggest that it is not the purpose of Christians in government to try and legalize the fine points of our religious beliefs, but rather to work towards a government that helps create a nation where free will can be safely and responsibly exercised. Once that environment is created, then the Church must work towards changing the hearts of people.

Peace,
Jamie

Clint, Obviously you and I completely disagree on this topic, and that’s okay. However, I need to echo Josh’s post very strongly. I don’t see evidence of how homosexuality is damaging to society. I am not going to write too much because I get way too emotional about this topic and it hurts me personally even though I am a heterosexual christian. I love way too many people in my life that are homosexual. My husband and I have had numerous talks with our pastor about this topic, I wish you could meet him. I also agree with Jamie on the point regarding the government. I would hope that we as Christians do not think we are so superior to others that we think we need to make the laws of the United States exclude other faiths. Isn’t that why we have freedom of religion?

Josh,

Firstly, I think that we can agree that homosexuality is a sin just like dishonesty, lust, murder, pride- pick your crime against God- we’re all guilty of many. Now, in that vein- I don’t understand how you can call any homosexual marriage “healthy” or “good”, whether the people involved love each other or not.

I agree that there are many “bad” heterosexual marriages. We live in a nation with a divorce rate of somewhere around 40% (I’m pretty sure that’s the current stat). But how many of those marriages are based on the love of Christ? Probably not many.

Marriage is no longer a sacrament to most people in our society; especially not the ones based entirely on a sinful lifestyle. But the sanctity of marriage and the reasons why many people even do it anymore are different discussions entirely.

Jamie,

Good response. My answer to your question in a word is- yes. I have to explain that I am quite the idealist. In the ideal world (what I believe heaven is), anything that would work to dissolve our relationship with our God would be offensive. And honestly, when I look at the world, I feel the same sorrow for the muslim couple that I do for the homosexual couple- just as I feel sorrow for anyone that doesn’t know the richness of a relationship with God.

Also, I agree that free will should be safely and responsibly exercised. I think however, that in our world- more importantly our nation- the definitions of safe and responsible have been greatly distorted. For this reason, I believe it is crucial that we build a society that can truly be a light to the world; a nation of Christians who overwhelms others not through war or conquest, but through aid and charity. To really be able to do this though, we’ve got some cleaning up to do.

Like I said though, I’m an idealist. If it were up to me we’d all dance around, hold hands, and sing “Jesus loves me” all day long.

sorry- totally for got to wrap up my final point on how homosexuality is damaging to society:

Since it is a sin- a part of our brokenness, sickness, as earlier described in the comments- it is something that dissolves our union with God- and as such, its propogation is a danger to all- especially our future generations.

I hate to sound insensitive or to be misunderstood. It’s hard to really express everything I feel in a forum like this.

And to Jill,

I think once you’re Christian, you’re automatically superior- not in a prideful way, but in a wise, compassionate sense. We understand things in a different way from the rest of the world.

In that way, I think our laws should reflect who we are and what we believe- not to force others to succumb to the iron fist of Christianity, but to show them as a loving example a better way to live.

“Yes, you’re all welcome here, but while you’re visiting this is how we expect you to behave.”

I don’t see anything wrong with this.

Clint,

Wow, that surprises me. No offense intended, byt frankly I find that position dangerous. What scared me the most, however, was the phrase “more importantly our nation”. Why is that more important than the world? God doesn’t want us to have a political nation that will overwhelm the world, but a Kingdom born out of the heart of humanity.

Sadly, while you say it is not through conquest that this would be a achieved, for the millions of non-Christians in your nation, your “cleaning up” would inevitably conquest. I would encourage you to look thoughout history for place where this strategy was employed to bring change and the inevitable results.

Peace,
Jamie

Jamie,

I think I was a little misunderstood- by focusing on our nation I wasn’t neglecting the rest of the world, I was expressing the fact that to create change in others, many times you must first create change within yourself- I was simply applying it to the scale of our nation (ourselves as Christians- not necessarily America in general) and the world (others).

As for politics, laws, and conquest, I feel that you’re still interpreting me as saying things like enforcement, crime, and punishment- but what I’m really saying is rehabilitation, guidance, and love.

LIke, “Hey guys, what you’re doing is sort of messed up. Let me show you a better way.”

I believe this is the lesson that Christ taught all of us through his ministry, and we would do well to pass on that lesson to all others in whatever ways possible- whatever our expertise or area of influence; whether you’re a teacher, a lawmaker, or an unemployed six-year navy veteran hoping to score some work soon so he can feed his wife and pay his mortgage.

josh, thanks for approaching this from a kingdom, community oriented place as opposed to a political/theological (abstract) issue place.

that is a brave choice as it requires you to see things in shades as opposed to black and white. abstraction allows us to use black and white catagories. but life is not like that.

i already respect you, but this just confirmed that.

thats all i wanted to say. sorry for not commenting directly on your subject.

Clint,

I am not sure I did misunderstand you, as you did cite marraige laws, which would be an enforcement issue. Did I misunderstand that? Please feel free to clarify.

I wasn’t suggesting that you were neglecting the rest of the world, just challenging your idea that a national example is a good idea.

I agree that people needs to be influencers for the Kingdom in whatever position they find themselves in, but in the case of lawmakers and politicians, I do not think that necessarily translates into creating laws that reflect or require Christian practice, but rather values (for the most part).

So, I come back to your comments about being opposed to gay marraige, then saying that, indeed, you hold to the same standard as Islamic unions. I can only assume that if you think these things are the same, then if you oppose the one, you should equally oppose the other. If that is NOT what you mean, please feel free to clarify.

Peace,
Jamie

sorry i’ve been out of the conversation. i try to stay away from the site on the weekends in order to spend time with my wife and rest. but there seems to be some good conversation still going.

jill,
i really appreciate your perspective that you have from your job and how your faith is coloring that and vice versa. i think that is the way it’s supposed to be where our experiences and our head knowledge our in relationship with each other keeping each in check and pushing the limits on both ends.

mike,
as always thanks for your kind words.

clint,
i’m a little uncomfortable with your quote, “you’re all welcome here but as long as you are we expect you to behave.” sorta sounds like conditional grace or love. or acceptance for that matters. that to me even sounds like a backstep from “love the sinner, hate the sin”. and i don’t know what it is about me, whether i’ve just gone stark raving liberal, just reacting to my fundamentalist background, or the fact that i’m becoming more relaxed, but calling homosexuality a sin is uncomfortable for me. i know what your response is because i’m already thinking it and saying it to myself in my head as well as hearing everybody i know in my head. i’m not saying i’m right. but when i hear that i just think about particular faces i know and somehow i just can’t put that label on their relationships. maybe i can, but i’ve just gotten so uncomfortable with it that i’d rather just not and talk about something else.

jamie,
good thoughts on the role of government. maybe we should have us a nice conversation on that one of these days.

Josh,

It would be my pleasure to chat about any topic that comes up.

Peace,
Jamie

Jamie,

I have to say that I personally don’t see any division between Christian practice and Christian values, as one comes naturally from the other.

In my mind, law is by definition a collection of the morality, ethics, and values decided upon by a society in order to maintain a peaceable, stable community. So, value should become law should become practice.

Josh,

I can understand how your love for your friends makes you feel the way you do. I’ve only met you once, but after all of this speak, I see you as a truly graceful and merciful man, and I thank you for that.

I’ll try to be as sensitive as I can with this, but this is why I think homosexuality is a sin. From it’s very core, it defies creation. It flies in the face of procreation, and the propagation of humanity. And, taken to an extreme, it is a recipe for the extinction of mankind.

For my final point (I’m gonna try really hard to bring this all together), I don’t think homosexuality should be a tough issue. We all have sufficient sin in our lives to keep us from union with God. I do, you do, heck, I bet even George Bush has sinned once or twice in his life (whether he would admit it or not is a totally different discussion).

The problem with the whole thing is when we say, “Hey, it’s ok. Live like you want to as long as you say you love Jesus.”

When I sin, almost every time, I know it immediately and feel guilty. I’m convicted by my own conscience or the Holy Spirit or my wife (she’s might actually be a little better at it than the Spirit, I don’t know). Now for that every now and then when I sin and don’t know it, like when I totally offend or hurt someone because I’m a jerk- but for whatever reason I can’t tell they’re hurt or offended, I would totally hope that they or someone else close to them would confront me and tell me about it- in a spirit of kindness and compassion, mind- because knowing my own weaknesses, I can make the jump from jerk to abominable asshole in a nanosecond…

Anyway, my point is sometimes I don’t know and I need to be informed of my guilt from someone else.

In that context, even though they may have the tendencies and struggle for the rest of their lives, homosexuals need to be aware of their guilt. I think that if we start to approve of a sin, any sin, through non-conviction, we help to lessen the burden of that guilt and we end up doing far more harm than good to our brothers and sisters.

Let me just say, thanks to all for the great discussion. It’s been wonderful. It’s really given me opportunity to examine the how and why of my own faith and beliefs.

Love and aloha

clint,
i’m just not sure i agree that it’s my lack of a position lessens the guilt. as if our words and positions are helpful for adding guilt. that we are to make judgements and definitive statements in order to keep the guilt in front or before them.

but i agree with your last paragraph. even though we may disagree, i’m glad we could have a chance to be strectched in our thinking and in our actions on our posture towards homosexuality.

I guess just one rhetorical question to put it in a slightly different perspective:

If you were participating in sin that you remained unaware of and unconvicted of, would you want to be told about it?

assuming it was a sin . . .

if i was a god follower . . . depends on my mood, depends on whose doing the telling, and their mood. but technically . . . yes.

if i wasn’t . . . no way in hell i want somebody telling me about my “sin”.

Clint,

Sorry if I do not share your logic. There are many practices to my faith that are specific to my being a Christian. The values may be universal, but some of the practices are part of my choice in specific relationship to God. In that sense, I want people to all share the value of charity, but do not expect EVERYONE, in respect to the law, to attend church or take a Sabbath rest or participate in communion.

Peace,
Jamie

good post … or link … or whatever.

You may not remember me, but as d10, and you probably will.

I’ve had very similar thoughts and here’s my cent and a half.

First of all, I think that the Body of Christ in general needs to stop being AGAINST things. For instance, I’m not against homosexuality. I’m FOR God’s design, which was a healthy one man, one woman marriage that ideally reveals the relationship between Christ and His Church.

And man, is that rare. But that’s what I’m for. That’s what the goal is for me whether you’re single or married or gay or divorced or all of them. That’s the ideal put forth by the Bible, so that’s what I’m for.

And within that, the Body of Christ has done an awful job with the homosexual community. I mean, horrible. We have judged them as being somehow MORE sinful than someone else. Why would homosexuals listen to a community that doesn’t even coming close to acting towards them as Christ would? Christ would love them enough to accept them for who they were, then heal them, show them grace, and tell them to sin no more. Sometimes we leave that last part out with each other, but not with gays! You have to have grace before you tell people not to sin … at least that’s how Christ did it.

And also speaking of Jesus, Hebrews says that he was tempted as all people were tempted in order to be the perfect High Priest for us. Are we comfortable with the extreme of that statement? If true, that means that Jesus was tempted with homosexuality, bestiality, mass murder, you name it, he was tempted with it.

But without sin. No one else in history can claim either one of those statements … that they were tempted with EVERYTHING and without sin.

That’s on a Church level. In the world, it becomes an issue with legislation. I don’t believe in legislating a Christian morality. Only the Holy Spirit can inspire and teach that and only God’s grace can empower that, but how is it supposed to be fleshed out in our government?

Some people just don’t care, but as a History major, this concerns me for one basic reason. Can anyone name one civilization over the last three thousand years of recorded history that has accepted and celebrated homosexuality that then improved? They don’t exist. In fact, between the Egyptians, the Chinese, the Greeks and the Romans, the wholesale acceptance and celebration of homosexuality has coincided with the downward spiral of their civilization. (I’m going to flesh this out more on my blog a little this week … so I won’t say a lot about it here).

Now, I don’t expect America to live forever. It will burn like every other country/nation/civilization. But I don’t know if its very loving to help it along.

I will conclude with this. I think you hit on something very genuine when you discussed how difficult it is to be theological when dealing with a person who is gay on a personal level. As someone who has been involved in music and food service and drama productions in the past, I can honestly say that I have had those conversations. And they break your heart. It is one of the most difficult things I’ve ever had to do to tell someone who is gay (when they asked) that although I love them with my whole heart, their behavior is sin and against God’s design for them. Sometimes it strained the relationship, but it was the truth and I tried to do it in love. I ate and fellowshipped and loved them as best I could. But I would also tell and adulterous man he was in sin or a prideful one or an angry one or host of other things spelled out clearly in scripture. Being the head of a ministry, I actually have had those very conversations. I’m blessed that it is rare, but it is sometimes necessary.

And I am a needy man. I need Jesus for every breath I take and obedient action. I need him just as much as the most peverse person on the face of the planet (or has ever lived) needs him. And I appreciate that you bring up a personal (and common) struggle as we look at others. That is correcting and rebuking in love. We must remember our own plank before even attempting to remove the speck. But if you read what Jesus said … we are still to remove the other’s speck.

Good post. Peace.

sorry … I just read a lot of the comments, and I’ve appreciated all the perspectives, because I’ve been a lot of those places.
I guess I need to clarify something here which I was going to clarify on my blog, but most of you don’t know me so I’ll do it here.
As I read the Bible, a lot more recently and as I grow, I find that God feels that homosexuality is not a good thing. In fact, to get “insensitive”, he calls it an abomination. It is detailed as perverse and unacceptable in Leviticus. As you read in Romans, homosexuality was a sign that God had given them over to their own lusts because of their unthankfulness towards God.
And the Old Testament is full of examples of both Israel and other nations being judged for their sin. I’m sure Israel was having lots of fun while they worshipped other gods … and they killed the prophets (at least Peter said they did) who tried to turn them from those paths.
I was reading in John where Jesus told the 11 left after Judas left him that the world would laugh and you will weep.
In Revelation the world will weep and the church will rejoice.
So it is more than possible to me, scripturally, that you can be totally happy and totally in sin, thinking you’re doing great the whole time.
Now, if we want to disregard scripture and history for our own limited experience, I’m not sure that is wise, but we can if we so choose. But it seems to me that history and the Bible points out that while sin may be fun for a season, the end is destruction, whether you’re an individual, a community, a nation or the world.

Jill and Jamie (or others), I don’t know you, and if we lived in the same area, you would be more than welcome at my house and to discuss anything you would like. I did not mean to offend, only to clarify what I meant in the above post. I hope you can hear my heart.

I also love ponies. Big ones.

peace.

Britt,
I’ve allowed your comments but disagree with you in a couple of differnt spots. However, it’s really late at night, this post is a couple of weeks old, thus nobody else will probably be checking it except the RSS comments fiends (i.e. Eric), and so I digress for tonight and possibly entirely.

RSS is leet.

[...] We’ve had some good conversations: on homosexuality, on the suburbs, on slow living, and on house church, to name a few. And this has all been in the last 5 months! [...]

[...] Josh is tackling the whole homosexuality issue. His pdf reminds me of a nice quip from Tony Jones. Tony said when someone asks him about homosexuality, he responds ‘Which homosexual?’ or ‘Who?’. Josh does well to suggest that the ‘theological’ issue can not be separated from the relational aspect. [...]

This post is over a year old, but that isn’t going to keep my from commenting… Your pdf was darn well put.

Some of the issues raised by Jamie, britt, clint and others were very thought-provoking, esp. Jamie’s comments on the purpose of government.

I plan on linking to this and sending folks over here to catch up with you.

Here’s the second post on a year-old post. I’m flying in on Joy’s coattails (and link). Great stuff. Thanks, Josh.