i don’t have time to read the posts right now, but i just gotta put it out there that the banners for this war series just keep getting better and better with each post …. part 3 had my favorite banner … but ya know … man, it’s too early in the morning

Josh, I’ve been reading and many times.. you had me – so enraged… I was ready to comment/blast.. But then only for me to read the next paragraph and understand where you are coming from and calm down.

God blessed you with a wonderful gift of writing because you stir up so many emotions and you challenge our thought process. When the first book is finished, I will stand in line to buy it.

You know my personal interest in this war and I want to make one comment regarding this… When the cowards attack – then go run -hiding themselves among their children and woman.. They are the ones that make orphans and widows ..not our boys that have to go in after them.

Looking forward to part 5.

thanks for your kind words pam. i hate that i enraged you. i would have hoped for jumps of joy. or skipping carefree. but i’ll settle for enragement.

yeah its a difficult thing writing about this. because i’m so torn in so many different directions. it’s not cut and dry. as lame as it sounds, i just have to keep asking myself how would jesus be acting in these conflict situations. and i’m just having more and more difficulty coming to the conclusion that he would respond in the ways that we have. whether on the right side or the left side of the political spectrum.

I keep typing out a response and then erasing it. I don’t know that I’ve completely formed my thoughts into words yet. Like my mama said, because of Craig being in the Army, I do kind of have a different perspective on it. Based on what he’s told me, from what he’s seen first-hand in combat. I don’t agree with innocent people dying. But I’m also not opposed to war. Still processing everything…

How long are you going to wrestle with war when we all know the answer is Jesus. I haven’t read any of this yet, but I plan on it soon.

thanks kristen! i would love your to hear your thoughts as i’m sure everyone else would too.

and i agree tank, that my perspective is uniquely shaped by the life of Jesus. and so i realize that what i’ve been writing and struggling with might not resonate with those who are unfamiliar or unsure of some of some of his claims.

at the same time, i’d love to hear some of the perspectives of those who don’t think Jesus really applies here. or is marginally irrelevant. i realize that gives us different starting points, but maybe that could be a nice exchange of ideas and possible solutions.

I think Jesus is always relevant, but I there’s an aspect of Christ that’s totally different from anyone on this earth. He is Human+ (namely, he is also God) and we are just normal human.

In this way, we can model ourselves after him- but his mission was, though manifold and complex, had very specific and unique purposes. He accomplished things for humanity that no other man in the cosmos was/is/will ever be able to.

From this statement, you can see that there are ways that we can never be just like Christ. We can’t always deal with humanity the way a Human+ can. Humans have limited understanding and patience, pride, greed, lust, hate. These things get bred into us, and not all of us are taught to resist them.

For those who rape, murder, pillage. How long could you could you stand by and say, “Please stop.”

All I’m saying is, that sometimes, humanly speaking, humans lose the ability to reason. Or at least, absolutely refuse to.

It is then when I think we have a real responsibility to protect the innocent, and to tell the guilty, “I will do whatever it takes to stop you.”

It would hurt me to come to that resolution, and even more to have to carry it out, but I can’t help but believe that it is, at times necessary.

i agree. its really, really difficult.

my question is, is raping the innocent, murdering the innocent, and pillaging the innocent any worse than what jesus had to do? losing his life when he was innocent? taking the punishment that he did when he was innocent. i’m not saying it’s easy. i’m not saying i would do it with a gun to my head.

but there is some sort of example that he was setting. laying down his life not just for his friends but his enemies as well. would i do it? could i do it? i have no idea. and never want to be in a situation where i have to make such a difficult decision.
but the example is still there. the way to defeat violence is still there. whether or not i think it’s hard. asks to much. or is unrealistic for humans. it’s still there.

i’m not saying that force isn’t a last resort at times. i’m not saying it is the first option either. i really don’t know what i would do in a pressure situation.

but where i’m trying to lead this is to a place of thinking honestly about the way that jesus would act and respond in situations of conflict. and then let that speak for itself. as well, my next couple of posts will deal with being preemptive. by alleviating the causes of war and terrorism before they happen. war and terrorism are symptoms to a much deeper problem. they are not the disease in and of themselves. so for us to sit back and promote war or disprove of war during the situation, only shows me that we didn’t play enough of a role to prevent it from happening.

I’m all read up and I love your sermon series so far. I have had many of these thoughts and I just always end up going in circles because of the complexity of the issues. I think one major way of creating peace is to create equality in the world. We use way too many resources. I heard Rob Bell say (which I believe is probably true) that the amount of money America spends a year on ice cream could feed and clothe the whole world. It is crazy how the world produces more than enough food for everyone, but we use it all up and waste much of it. I know I throw away old food often, I need to become more intentional about the food I buy. I know this is one random comment, but I have been up for many hours now and I am tired. I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone with these thoughts, I hope for peace too.

I guess what I was trying to say with that last comment is that we should spend the money/time/resources taking care of the oppressed countries before violence results from oppression. With the amount of money we have spent on the war in Iraq alone we could have changed many peoples lives and helped create a world where America is seen as a country who cares about the welfare of all people in all places instead of a selfish country.

did you just call my blog a sermon series? you’re lucky i don’t moderate that!!!

I think that Jesus’ submission to violence and his sacrifice can and does serve as an example. However, in many ways that submission and that sacrifice were the crux of his mission on earth. It was the purposed end to his ministry here.

The problem as I see it, when we try to implement this philosophy, is that our sacrifice and submission can never, in any way do what his did. We couldn’t even come close.

If we all lined up to be the innocent sacrifice, how long would it be before there were no more of us? Evil inherits the earth.

I know I’m taking it to an extreme, but it’s just to make the example.

I like the idea of preemptively stopping a war by striking at the root of the problem, however the things that cause wars- the things that cause the backyard brawl between brothers- can never be completely erased from humanity. I think it’s why we, as Christians, can feel so lost and confused in this world.

“Why can’t everybody just figure it out?”

Also- hehe “sermon series”

[...] Josh Brown has been wrestling with war for a few posts now, and I thought it would be a good time to send you that direction. Part One, Part Two, Part Three, and Part Four. Part five is next, and I’m not sure how far he’s going to go. Josh also says, “Tim LaHaye talks with an MSNBC reporter about the end times. If nothing else, read the last question and answer on page 4.” [...]

I loved tanks responce, “…we should spend the money/time/resources taking care of the oppressed countries before violence results from oppression.” that is one of the best things I have heard in a long time. I mean best, not like “happy, yea, fun times” like the best kind of truth i heard heard in quite sometime. yea for kangaroos.

lesile and tank,

I think the problem with your reasoning that the real issue isn’t with the violence that results from oppression, but the violence that is a tool of oppression.

The only problem with this is that the violent oppressors are the ones in control, rendering many of the efforts to help the oppressed futile.

How many times has the UN sent food/money/medical supplies to aid countries in Africa, only to have it seized and hoarded by the controlling warlords? These warlords are exactly the types that I mentioned earlier who refuse to be reasoned with.

So here lies before you an entire generation, an entire nation and an entire civilization that is built around and stands behind war. This vast machine that is war taints all mindsets, precepts and concepts. If war were called to court no jury could be assembled because war, in some form or another, is prevalent in every culture and location and everyone has an opinion. It has so invaded our lives in this country that even our daily speech is tainted by “the language of war”. Even when I turn to the scriptures I see blood and the upheaval of nations spread from Genesis to Malachi.

Where is the peace? Where isn’t there war? What society do we have to look on as an example of one that hasn’t been tainted by war?

Your posts are great. The topic is a valid one that needs to be brought to the forefront of every human’s mind, especially those who claim to follow a man named Jesus.

I remembering while reading Hemingway novels how I could see him struggle through with the pain war brought. He numbed his emotions with alcohol and eventually shot himself as a way to deal with what he couldn’t deal with. Maybe the images of war haunted him in his sleep.

Whatever the weight of war is there have always been some in every generation who have attempted to tackle the issue of war. Some march the streets in protest, some flood the Whitehouse with letters and pleas to ceasefire, and some…well, some write blog posts. Keep writing Josh.

I didn’t mean for that last part to sound like an election speech for Josh for President. It just kind of came out all stoic and wordy like that.

clint,
i don’t think i can agree with your first paragraph that the cross “was the end of his purposed mission here”. ok . . . maybe . . . but it was definitely the start of our “purposed mission” here to begin to live the ways that Jesus lived. and i agree with you that we can never match what Jesus did, but i think thats sort of a cop out for at least not trying. i mean, i can’t ever live fully pure like Jesus, but does that mean i shouldn’t try to. maybe i should just hook up with whoever i want to and sleep around. i mean since his is such a lofty example to follow, i guess i should just not even try. or only try on issues that seem easy to me. or natural. and you’re right, if we all believed it, there might not be a lot of us left. but i don’t think God is as worried about how many of us that are left as much as he is worried about how many are faithful to his example.

corey,
thanks for your insights. i think its important to note that you do find images of war from genesis to malachi, but you don’t find many, if any, in the new testament. sort of that whole thing that jesus changed the way we should respond.

Maybe I’m wrong but didn’t Jesus say that we would do greater things than he did? Maybe I’m taking it out of context, but maybe not (i’m not looking it up at the moment). He didn’t say that we would try, but fall just short of doing things as well as him. Jesus did amazing things, but it was his disciples living how he taught them that changed the world, in essence it was the disciples that changed the world, not Jesus, at least not Jesus alone.

clint – i understand the complexity of the issue and that it isnt’ as easy as sending a plane full of money to a country. It requires much more time/effort/resources than we have previously given and it will also require much more than a month, this will take years and probably last longer than our generation will last, but I believe that with time love will conquer all things, but this dream can only be realized with much sacrifice, more sacrifice than I can imagine.

I didn’t mean it as a cop-out, although, I can see how you understood it that way. I wasn’t talking about struggling to match his purity. I was speaking of individual sacrifice. I meant it more like, we have our separate duties to perform in the kingdom. There’s no way that anything we can do will ever come close to the supernatural implications of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

But anyway, back to war; I believe that there is a time for it. I believe that there is sometimes evil in the world that needs to be fought. But that decision needs to be made extremely thoughtfully and carefully. Exhausting all other options.

Images of naked children running down the streets after the atom bomb dropped on Hiroshima play out it my head, and all I can think about is how there is no possible way that can be, “just” or neccesary, or a sacrifice we should be willing to give. Besides, it’s not our children we are sacrificing.

Evil is prevalent, it needs to be eradicated … but my question is, why is it neccesary to go about it the way that we do. With all the technology we have at our fingertips, and all of our brain power, I would hope we could re-think the way we fight evil. There has to be a better, SMARTER, way to get rid of the bad guys.

BUT … I guess what Jesus was saying all along was that the greatest thing to do is to “turn to other cheek” – but honestly, I don’t see how turning the other cheek to the evil will stop it from being evil.

Dangit, as I think this comment out and write my thoughts, I am so confused. There are so many things racing through my head, blah

jessica,
this is a quote from an article i’m going to link to this afternoon, “military muscle is always too hedonistic and narcissistic to listen to the voice of reason and history.”

josh,

I was using the old testament defense of war as one that i have heard from the pulpit many times. I dont agree with it as an explanation or excuse for war, i guess i was just throwing it out there to bring in that perspective you here from a lot of pulpits.

By the way, i read the article on the Sword and the Cross pastor and was almost brought to tears. I was so excited to hear a pastor who cared less about his numbers and more about the truth. Thanks for the link.

[...] Part One of Wrestling With War Part Two of Wrestling With War Part Three of Wrestling With War Part Four of Wrestling With War Part Five of Wrestling With War [...]

To say that Christ, while being fully man and fully God, is not able to be emulated by other humans because of his godness, is to deny his true humanity.

In both his humanity and divinity, Christ relied upon the Father through the Spirit in order to accomplish what he did.

Thus, if we are to be re-created back into the image and likeness of God, we must allow Christ to be our instructor on what it is to be human (not Adam).

To suggest that Christ was only able to do what he did b/c he was God is simply a reintroduction of Apollinarianism (or some other such heresy) into the discussion.