wow. i’m really looking forward to your review of this book. just so you know, i think i’m going to come up with eli.

hey man, i picked up this book from the library just a bit after your tall skinny mention of it and it’s pretty incredible, i was only two chapters in before i returned it b/c it was due, (i’m a slow reader, okay), but it’s definetely on my “to finish” list

It’s definitely a different perspective from what everyone is used to with the media. I can’t tell you how many coversations it opened up for Craig and I, and by reading it you can probably see why. Sometimes when he comes home from just working day to day, I have to ask him to turn off Army mode. Glad you liked it.

Josh and Kristen,

Would you say you liked the book for the same reasons or different ones? Does the book give a sense of exaltation of the “heroism” of soldiers, or is it a gritty realistic portrayal of the horrors of war? Or both? What are both of your reasons for liking this book?

Nate

nathan
i’m not sure about kristen and i’m not sure if we will come to the same conclusions. i would expect her perspective to be colored by her experience of having a fiance over there being attacked, with his life on the line by all sorts of “enemies”. so if her thoughts on the book are different than mine where i write from my laptop in my air conditioned house free from most of that stuff, then i’m not surprised. i say all of that to those who might be critical of a perspective outside of pacifism. while that is my approach, i also recgonize its not as black and white as that.

i think the book does an excellent job of bringing the romanticized view of our troops back to a human level. does that mean they are less than heros? i don’t think it does. but it does tell a story of an armed forces where men love pornography, revel in killing, use language that will make you uncomfortable at the least. many of these men (not all) are the men who couldn’t make it in school, had problems, or were on their way to jail, but found an “out” in the military. hardly the image of freedom fighters that our media spins.

i still believe these guys are heros and should be admired. but not because of what the media says.

they do it because its their job. and that’s what they do. it’s what our government has trained them to do.

at the same time, to be fair, there are some who mourn the loss of civilian life. who wrestle and struggle with the war. and who resent their leaders. there also soldiers who seem apathetic about the loss of civilian life, love the war, and who see themselves as warriors.

the best way i know how to describe the book is to tell you that the average soldier in this book, was a high school drop out or didn’t go to college. compares combat that he’s in to a game of grand theft auto. looks at porn everyday while listening to rap. whose favorite pass time while in iraq is masturbating. uses the f-word 8 words out of 10.

it is what it is. i still have nothing but respect and call everyone of those guys heroes for what they do. whether or not i agree with them or not. that’s not just me being tactful. they are in a very difficult situation and are doing a difficult job.

the book just tells the real life story. not the romanticized spin that we play it up at in our churches and in the media. the book talks about civilians being killed. women being killed. and the real deal terrorists being killed. it’s extremely balanced and honest in my opinion. where there aren’t any black and white answers to whose good and whose bad. but we as well as the enemy, in many ways, are both and the same.

My reasons for liking this book would definitely be different from Josh’s. Craig, my husband but fiance at the time of his deployment, got home in January. And there was a great deal that I wanted to ask but was unsure of how to bring the subjects up. And I also didn’t feel like I had enough knowledge to ask questions. To me, the author riding along with the REcon Marines in this book could have just as easily been riding in the back seat of Craig’s Humvee with his squad.

It’s raw and it’s real. Sometimes too raw and too real. It’s definitely a book that will stay with you.

In my short time as an Army wife I’ve met three types of soldiers. I’m not saying that this is all there is, I just haven’t met them yet if there are more. There’s the Billy Badass that joins because he wants to blow things up and carry a gun. There’s the guy who really believes in what he’s doing and he joined for that sole purpose. And there is the guy who graduated from high school, wasn’t ready for college because he was unsure of what he wanted to do in life, saw the Army as just another job, and the recruiter caught him on the phone at just the right time (the man I’m married to). I think while this book does speak a LOT about the “average Marine” and what Josh talked about it, it also give insight into each Marine’s character. What they struggle with or don’t struggle with depending on why they joined in the first place.

It is a book you struggle with. It’s a book that leaves you thinking. I don’t know that I would use the word like in describing it how I felt about it. I LIKE cheesy romance novels. But it’s definitely worth reading.

[...] Yesterday I gave you some quotes and the first part of my book review of Generation Kill by Evan Wright. Today I’m just going to give you some more quotes and excerpts from the book and you can make your own decisions. [...]

Kristen and Josh,

I left this comment on my desktop for a week debating on whether to post it cause I didn’t want to come off as a self-righteous jerkface, but I thought for the sake of discussion, I’d just toss it out there.

Thanks for your thoughts…I have some in response that I guess I’ll approach in addressing you each one at a time (maybe a second response more directly to Kristen). And I’m honestly asking these questions as well; everyone has vested interests, but I really want to know where you’re coming from, and I also am passionate about consistency in our discipleship that brings me to conversations such as this. (this response is pretty much all to Josh, but Kristen, feel free to respond as you see fit)

Josh,

First off, I don’t think we have to qualify our comments right off the bat depending on where on the globe we are or what situation we’re in. We are where we are, and we have to be the best followers of Christ we can in the situations we’re in, knowing that the hard work and thinking we carry out now should bear fruit in the future if we’re placed in a high-tension crisis situation. That’s why I appreciate the hard thinking and honesty you bring in your blog; it’s not just “head”thinking…it’s heart thinking that will bear fruit in its time. I am a pacifist as well, not because I carry an optimistic belief in human nature or spend all my time singing Kumbaya with my hairy-legged female friends in the forest; it’s because Jesus is Lord, and that’s changed everything for me. I am critical (like it seems you are) of the majority of modern-day pacifism, which at its essence is gutless and mindless groupthink that’s just as unhealthy as uncritical patriotism and nationalism.

Would you agree with me that faithfulness to Christ involves giving the whole of our lives over to God? Everything (heart, mind, soul, body)? Would you also agree with me that the kind of love we are called to as followers of Christ is a radically different kind than the one the vast majority of the world lives with? If so (or not), allow me to think for a sec…

It seems to me God’s people are to carry some overarching themes in our consciousness that should drive us as we live…these themes are driven by our understanding that the world has two histories. One is cyclical and ultimately meaningless. This is the history of humanity that has (and will continue to) live and die in rejection of the purposes of God. It is one defined by conflict, separation from God, wars and rumors of wars, self-centeredness, pride, and greed. The other is purposeful and (in fits and starts) moving towards an ultimate goal (the redemption of all creation in Christ). As Jesus so powerfully highlighted, “from the time of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of God has been forcefully advancing, and forceful people take hold of it.” In the 2000 years since, the Lordship of Jesus has spread in an incredible way to a vast number of peoples…it is inherently global in scope and sees no artificial boundaries of ethnicity, race, class, or gender. Our participation in the meaningful history is grounded in our submission to the purposes and will of God. We submit God knows better than us, and allow our lives and priorities to be turned upside-down. (which, ironically, is right-side up)

Connected to this worldview, a sound reading of Romans suggests that we should have a pessimistic view of humanity apart from Christ: it is in direct rebellion. So it seems to me we are to set the pace for what humanity is called to be.

I’ll put it another way. I am comfortable and “safe” in my seminary building right now because millions of men and women have died to ensure that “safety” and “freedom.” Being a pacifist is not about making the gutless decision to simply claim CO status in a time of war and let other men and women die while I enjoy comfort at their expense and am free to do what I want while they’re going through hell. So, if millions of people have killed and been killed for me to sit comfortably here and type, I need to consider several things, by my estimation. What is the faithful alternative for Christ-followers?

1) Have those millions died for a God-given global sense of justice? Have they followed the example of love given by Jesus? Is an American use of “freedom” different than a global sense of “freedom”? Have they allowed ideologies such as patriotism, nationalism, secular definitions of peace, justice, love, good v. evil, and manipulative emotions such as fear or pride drive them?

2) If millions have died for a twisted sense of justice and for sinful means and ends, I should be willing to die for a Biblical sense of justice and love and for righteous means and ends. That requires the formation of a body of people committed to reconciliation and sacrificial love who are willing to bear the cost of death for the sake of Christ. That strikes me as the only valid counternarrative to those willing to offer their lives for a nation, organization, in a fashion that destroys others instead of living into the gospel of reconciliation.

2) There seems to be a strange distinction folks make (that you have made) in recognizing that we are called to sacrificial non-violent love as Christ-followers, yet are willing to look up to and exalt those who participate in the destruction of God’s creation as heroes…or, at the very least, just people doing a job.

I think that displays an inconsistency in your approach. If you think killing is inconsistent with the message and mission of Jesus, it should logically follow that you think that should be true for all of his followers (we really can’t expect the same from our friends who haven’t submitted their lives to Christ). I think it’s just obvious that some vocations in society are black and white faithful or unfaithful for Christians to participate in. Thus, whether someone bought into the wiles of a recruiter or started as a Billy Badass; they’re still ultimately responsible for the decision they’ve made to enter that vocation. And their willingness to put their lives on the line for what they believe in shouldn’t result in us uncritically looking up to them. Shouldn’t we explore, pray, and envision ways we can put our lives on the line for the sake of Christ…and be willing to bear the cost of some (or many) dying? Isn’t that the gospel? God loved the world and gave himself up for it…in like manner we love the world and give ourselves up for them.

I’m trying to wrap my mind and my life around all of these things, Josh, so by no means do I have a black and white position when it comes to them…but I do have a strong sense of drive to figure out healthy ways that we as Christfollowers can hold up as a value the need to live transformed lives rather than look like the rest of society with several different “beliefs,” you know?

Another take on this book from the unique perspective of a Marine with 17 years in RECON.