church should be a place to teach people how to put others before yourself. i couldn’t agree with that statement more.

i also think you’re onto something when you critique the contemporary church’s use of money. i find it odd that so many churches overextend themselves to finance building projects yet still have the gall to preach to their community about being good stewards. moreover, i suspect that by committing so much money to “staffing for growth,” many churches are unintentionally undercutting the priesthood of all believers.

thanks for sharing leslie. keep asking questions and keep following that homeless man.

leslie. what you wrote frustrates me. you strike me as a gifted and capable person. and one of the things that the church needs right now is gifted and capable young leaders. even more than that they need gifted and capable FEMALE leaders. it kind of makes me mad to read your story, and hear of the story’s of my female friends who serve in the church and do not feel validated. i think it takes a lot of courage for a woman to try to take part in a male dominated vocation. i can’t imaging why (well yes i can) a church would not have as one of its priorities the validation of its female leaders given the prejudices that many in the church have against female leadership. yet here you are, one more example of that failure on the part of the church. i think sometimes a church may say that they have no problem with female leadership but the culture of the church is such that they effectively run off female staff.

when will the church wake up?

This is a privilege you know. To be alive at this point in American Christianity is a blessing. It gets me excited to realize that I am witnessing what others have witnessed in various countries when Religion gave out. Look at England or Frances history with Christianity. I’m sure that before those nations became “post Christian” (I like to call it “post religion” because I think that Christ had little to do with what they were peddling) they experienced much of what we in America are experiencing.

How do you think this will all turn out? I’ve been reading a fascinating book called “The Trouble With Islam” by a woman named I shad Manji and in it she speaks of how Islam had at one time been a religion open to questions (and actually held it in high regard) to its present day state of fundamentalism and absolutes. There are many parts in the book that remind me of what modern day Christianity in America is beginning to look like.

When the “left” and “right” become so divided they don’t even remember what the middle looks like or how to get there we have a problem.

Thanks for sharing Leslie, your story is a good one and needs to be told. Thanks for facilitating these conversations Josh; a neutral place is much needed in such a polarized society.

i understand what youa re saing all too well leslie. it is bad when you go to the place you should feel most open and you feel least like yourself. where if you say what you really think you “could get fired” or every one look at you like you are the anti-christ just because you like beer or said the word “shit”. kind of depressing really. i have been struggling with a lot of the same thigns since i left birmingham. been watching your and nick’s struggles as well trying to get insight into my own. love you guys.

Leslie,
I definitely hear where you’re coming from, and you seem to be striking at the heart of what many of us sense. I remember reading Bob Hyatt’s blog probably about a year or so ago and reading of a pastor telling him once, “You’re here to run a ministry, not spend time with people.” What a screwed-up perspective! It’s easy in a program-driven church to lose perspective and view the program as both the means and end, when the end is a growing community of disciples of Jesus, and the means is the conversation, prayer, and worship with Christ at the center (like Nick suggested).

Part of the problem seems to be that we idolize suburban churches where safety and comfort are found in uniformity…you can tell from the houses and cars and grills and pools and trees, etc that suburbia breeds a kind of groupthink. Derek Webb in “I Repent” says, “I repent of trading truth for false unity…of domesticating you until you look just like me,” which spurs me on to think of a church more as a living, breathing, sometimes unpredictable, always seeking-stumbling often-yet-centered-on-Christ community where we truly challenge one another.

And that’s I guess where I would try to push you a bit further in your thinking and visioning. Quite often as humans we occupy one of two poles on given issues rather than engage with the likely mystery of the middle (again, a comfort thing), and I think our generation’s discontent with present church can swing to the opposite pole from the false idols of uniformity and easy answers of today to exalting our individuality and uniqueness as another false idol. It’s easy to talk about the need for challenge when we’re the ones that aren’t being challenged and having to deal with the discomfort and tension that arises from that conflict situation. Is the church simply a forum where we get to speak our piece and other people should accept it because it’s “who we are”? Or is church a place where we celebrate our individuality and all subject that individuality to the pursuit of righteousness…recognizing our dependence on God and submission to God as first priorities in order for our lives to truly be maximized? I say this because it’s important to investigate our motives. Is it ok to talk about beer in church…I think so, in the proper context. But what is our motivation for mentioning it; celebrating the freedom to drink in moderation or simply to shock others with our individuality? When it comes to swearing, I think this situation becomes more pointed. 98% percent of the times I’ve heard folks swear in church or in conversation (assuming followers of Christ), it’s been to shock someone. Does that line up with the pursuit of righteousness? Just a few questions.

Because ultimately, when we stand before the judgment seat one day, our lives will matter for one thing; seeking first God’s kingdom and His righteousness…we are all uniquely gifted, but are also fallen humanity, and we only slowly find our way out of that mess through a dependence on God and each other. That requires friends that are willing not only to accept us, but to be willing to take the uncomfortable step of challenging us to keep pressing on.

I appreciate your perspective…hopefully I didn’t ramble too much.

Leslie, I love your more now that ever! I have been struggling with these same concepts since I left AL, well actually since I left FL (Christian College). I found peace and understanding in college with who I actually was and when I returned to AL I found people in the Church being critical of “what I had become”. I was just thankful enough to meet Nick who made me realize that everyone is different for a reason and God accepts who we are no matter what the Church thinks. I have only been to Church a handful of times since moving back to MS and have found each time that I take my children there I would leave with a gross feeling of a “church” that has become more about popularity and politics than teaching and maturing a person. I am glad you wrote this I respect and support you.

There’s a thread that seems to be underlying several of the comments here that is at the least disquieting to me, and at most deeply saddening.

When did the “church” become the enemy? And how can we build bridges from the past to the present and future if we choose to start with burning the bridge and cutting and running when we are faced with the twisted reality of what the “church” has become? How does this address the rampant individualism of our age with an alternative story of an inbreaking kingdom… community that lives and loves together through the easy and the rough times?

The question I ask is related to this… it seems obvious to me that it is inevitable that every movement eventually must become an organization. It has to for the sake of survival, or the movement simply peters out. And I don’t think that’s an unhealthy thing, if the structure of the organization breeds the type of understanding, challenge, forgiveness, and love that Jesus has called us to. So the problem (as I see it) is not the “organized church” per se, but the screwing-up of the aim of the organization that is cancerous. And we’re fallible people, so that will happen to the best and most committed of us.

How do we fight the cancer by running from fighting for the cure? I’m all for dreaming and visioning and reimagining, but that’s all meant to be carried out in a space where we dream, vision, reimagine, pray, and grow together with others walking the same journey. And if we have folks that we live life with, draw strength from, pray with, and serve with (all in the name of Christ), voilah! We have a church!
And I would define church as this:
A collection of individuals who give up some degree of their individuality (not all!) for the good of the community growing in the pattern of Christ. It’s a marriage of sorts, really.

I guess I’m just reacting to the raw language I see here like “it’s been 8 months and 7 days since I stopped caring about the church” and “God accepts who we are no matter what the Church thinks.” The church is the visible life and witness of Christ; Jesus died for it…and we are called to give our lives for it. My prayer is that in the process of dreaming about what it could be that would would simultaneously work in the trenches toward that end. Sometimes that means starting something new, and sometimes that means taking something in the death rattle and reviving it to something pulsing with life, but either way it seems the only way to combat cynicism is to (self-critically) be a part of the solution.

nathan,
while i certainly understand your sentiment, at the same time i think you might be misunderstanding a bit of where some of us are. we’re not totally opposed to the church. we are talking specifically about the church that has pushed us aside or marginalized our voices. it’s not that we think community and the church is the enemy and we are just looking for a place to pursue our own interests and individualism. in fact, i think many of us are attempting to look and explore and reimagine what these “churches” or “communities” will look like for us in the future. and what we are saying is that right now, it is not taking the shape of the traditional model of church. it may be house churches. it may be dinner with friends. it may be good conversation over coffee. we are not minimizing the role of the church, but at the same time we are not putting in on a pedestal that it does not belong. or at the very least justifying a whole bunch of junk all because it’s on the pedestal to begin with.

i can’t speak for everyone, but for myself and anna. we are in the middle of really thinking through how to begin to create a new model of community. and what that looks like. and what that involves. and like you said, play our role in the inbreaking kingdom. but at the same time we are also very honest about the challenges. and while it may seem like we’re running. or just making an enemy. i think it’s the opposite.

again, its not that we’re opposed to church. in fact, if you asked most of us, i’m sure you’d find that we all place a very high value on it and it’s role in god’s economy. but there are very few churches that are making space for young leaders who are exploring new ideas, theologies, and practices. either forcing us out. marginalizing us until we feel we have no other choice but to leave, and in some of our cases, firing us.

i’m not trying to sound like a martyr. but you can only put up with so much stuff before you throw your hands in the air and say “to each their own”. and walk away graciously and humbly. while we may fail to keep that gracious posture at times, i don’t think anyone can doubt why someone would have trouble pouring 40-60+ hours a week into a community that could care less about their being there. and who see them as nothing more than a dispensable part in the machine. which is what happened in leslie’s case. and i don’t blame her for her apprehension about joining a community again. you can only get burned so many times before you say “to hell with it”. as in my case, while i wasn’t fired, and still have good relationships with those i used to work with, you can’t continually put 60+ hours, your heart, your prayers, your best into something for 2+ years and still be in the same spot. spinning your tires. i’m reminded of jesus’ charge to his disciples as he sent them out. if you come into a town and they do not accept you or reject you, brush your feet off at the door and keep on moving. i think that’s where a lot of us are. we’ve brushed our feet off and now we’re just moving on to something more hopeful. the sad thing is that there just aren’t many alternatives existing so many of us are on the frontlines of attempting to create new possibilities. again, we’re not martyrs. but there are very few churches that don’t exist with the same paradigm and focus. so until then . . . we’re moving . . . unfortunately . . . we’re having to move by ourselves as a rag-tag group of friends with little encouragement, no resources, and very little mentorship. which to me is the most trouble and saddening thing about this whole exodus.

[...] There is some good conversation going on centered around Leslie’s post on why she left the church. It’s really good and you should go join in. She’s gotten a lot of encouragement. Nate has brought up some good points about why he finds it troubling that we’re leaving. And I took the time to respond. But all in all, I think it’d be worthwhile to follow some of the comments. [...]

here’s what it’s all about (imo). it’s all about living out the life God created you to live. I think we are all interested in actually living all of life in the same way, and not having to act a certain way while at church – being fake or whatever – and then the rest of your week not really compute with Sundays. for those who were at the church at least 5 days a week, I am sure this was only more frustrating . . . almost seeming as though you were trying to live the way God wants you to on a daily basis, but hitting your head against a wall every single day.

Finding community, building relationships, having dinner together with friends . . . we were all doing this to some degree anyway. I for one just didn’t know how it all fit together. Now, I can be a lot more intentional about my conversations and my dinners, because this is my fellowship and time of learning. It is my life, and through my daily living I find the Lord.

Another thing imo, I believe people are confusing the kinds of churches. There are the buildings and denominations, and then there is the body of Christ. Church, as it is written about in the Bible, is anytime that you meet with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. We should always be intentional when we meet with each other.

Praise God that He’s stirring us all up to seek Him out!!!!!!!!!!

Let us never say that Jesus ‘died for the church’, to insert the church into the equation minimizes his death to a select in-group. That scares me. TULIP my ass.

Wow. I am really happy about that conversation that has stirred up. It made me feel great. As I am still trying to sift through my thoughts on all of this, I will just say a few more things.

Maybe I am running from the church, but I am trying to run towards a community, where ever that is. And for me this doesn’t have to be a Christian community. Just a place to discuss how we can better the world and bring about love.

And I also agree with the statement about our motives for swearing of drinking. I do think both of those things are okay but still need to be done in a respectful way. If it hurts someone to see alcohol, don’t do it. If it offends someone to hear a cuss word, don’t do it. But I guess I just don’t want to feel like I have to hide it. Then I just feel like I’m lying and fake.

Thank you for listening!

[...] I think I’m right in the middle of Leslie’s perspective and Eric’s, obviously with different insights on both ends of the spectrum. I’m Leslie because I’ve been burned and it hurts. I’ve been a member of the competition. And I’m not proud of what I became. I’m Eric because I think it should be different and it makes me sad. [...]

Hey, this is a comment for Leslie..
I was one of her ‘youth’ kids back at shumc, and can say that her and nick have had probably the biggest impact on my life then just about anyone else. i didn’t get a chance to fully read all the comments, but i agree with one that says it’s heartbreaking to know someone like leslie isn’t in churchs, because you’re what we (youth) need. you and nick are the reason i sort of, woke up, began questioning and reading and stopped asking questions when they decided to stop answering. you said…

“But I don’t think people realize how much mentorship is important. Pastors have a chance to really lift a person up and I see that opportunity slipping away from so many younger people.”

I was just really hoping you could also see that within your own life too lady, because for the longest time, i had always felt like you went past mentor and cared for me as a person, not just another youth member, and wanted a friendship. it truly did break my heart when you had to tell me about the church making such a dumb decision (letting you go!) and then you just sort of left and wanted nothing to do with any of us. but i understand now… it was hard. I guess what I’m getting at is, with you being such a cool person, you definately have the power to change lives and get people thinking. I see that as an amazing thing!

“And new questions and ideas are good. Because someone thinks differently then you should challenge you, not threaten you. Asking questions, reading different books, having more questions than answers is important.”

Thank you (and NICK!!!) for helping shape me into someone who can ask questions and wants to learn more…I’m always wanting to learn now. I know how much I still have to live and that I basically haven’t even begun to grasp what I wish I could already know, but you and Nick are definately this amazing inspiration, and I hope you know how much everyone does miss you and think/talk of you guys still.

i got the biggest compliment from rich recently. he asked me if i realized how much of a “fiedler kid” i was becoming.

allison

A couple of things to add-

In response to Nicholas-
In Ephesians 5, Paul writes that Christ “gave Himself up” for the church. I know there is a difference in verbage, but we need to be careful to stand on Biblical grounds when we talk about the church. Obviously, Paul was speaking of the Kingdom of God kind of church, not just traditional church. I just feel a strong sense that we need to be careful about the way we use the word “church.”

In response to Nate-
I appreciate your concerns and questions, Nate, and I agree with you that we don’t need to give up. I know that, from knowing most of the people who posted fairly well, they haven’t given up on church. They may have given up on traditional, modern, evangelical expressions of church, but they haven’t given up on the body of Christ or the Kingdom of God. They are wrestling with what the Kingdom of God looks like in their own everyday lives. I think that is very honoring to the Lord- to ask the tough questions and be willing to do something totally different if it’s what He wants.

I also understand your concerns about the cutting all ties to traditional church and leaving it. First of all, many people contributing here- Josh, Anna, Leslie, Nick- have been very wounded and hurt by the way their traditional churches treated them. Emotionally, sometimes it is necessary to completely leave a situation like these so you can heal. Ideally, it would be great to find healing with those people in their traditional churches, but those people are not currently willing to do so, and therefore they have distanced themselves from their traditional churches. It was almost like an abusive relationship for them- you wouldn’t counsel a person to stay in relationship with someone who was belittling, consistenly hurtful, and unwilling to change.

To everyone-
I also want to say that, many of the things said here seem very raw and emotional. That’s because for many of us, the experience is still very raw and emotional. It’s been something I struggle with constantly to see the downfalls and negative things about traditional church but still be appreciative for the positive things it gave me. I know we will all come there in time, but for right now it’s so fresh and raw that it’s difficult to find the balance.

I just want to encourage everyone, though, to try and remember the good things about traditional church. There are so many of our brothers and sisters deep in traditional church who feel very alienated by our strong emotions against it. I have a friend who was asked by someone in a megachurch, “Do people who go to house churches think that we are going to Hell?”

We need to be careful to not be judgmental. God is our Judge and Vindicator. He sees so much more than we do- let’s be careful that our hearts are in the right place of humility, love, and grace.

While none of us like abandoning the church’s “cancer,” how many of us would be laughed at if we went to our senior pastor and said “I think we should sell the $40 million dollar building, give the proceeds to the poor and to our own needy people, and then meet in homes and in our communities for free.”

The problem is that “fixing” the church is not possible with the current leadership within brick-and-mortar, established-theology churches. If dialogue and change was possible I’d be all for it, but as it is church leadership is immobile. I love the church (meaning the people within the building) and desperately want them to join me in getting out of the profanity modern evangelicalism has become.

[...] Josh’s Post Leslie’s Post Nick’s Post Eric’s Post Anna’s Post [...]

[...] My post Leslie’s post Nick’s post Eric’s post Anna’s post Andrew’s post Jessica’s post [...]

Some of my comments may have already been addressed, I apologize if this is redundant.

It’s been 8 months and 8 days since I felt the church stopped caring about me….It’s been 8 months and 7 days since I stopped caring about the church.

I think it would help to make some definitions. What “church” is being discussed?

…I don’t think we should be one church or really one body but maybe a variety of bodies all asking a lot of questions.

Call it my evangelical roots, but I believe that the bible (and the historic church) chose to refer to the bride of Christ as one body (Romans 12:3-5; I Corinthians 10:16-17, 12; Ephesians 4; Colossians 3:14-16) for a reason. You quickly changed subjects after this. It would be nice to hear you develop this more and share more thoughts on this matter.

I found the church to be run as a business. Money before people, buildings before people, saving face before caring about the people. And maybe this could be a difference between younger and older generations. Younger generations find something very wrong with this (some not all) and older generations (some not all) find that this just the way it is.

I don’t think it is a difference between generations. I think that would be an incorrect assessment. There will always be people who just don’t have their priorities straight, young or old. Lord have mercy on me!

church should be a place to teach people how to put others before yourself.

Amen! And even more importantly, with our individual lives we should be teaching and demonstrating this.

…and this is why I’m staying out of church right now.

So are you staying out because of the way you saw things being run in the backdrop? In an ideal world, why would you go to church?

And I was thirsty for it [recognition or positive feed back]. And that’s when it’s a business and not a community.

Your experience in this situations is really sad. I am so sorry. I feel responsible for contributing to the problem because I don’t give the people I am around the recognition that helps them so much.

And please do not try to answer that question.

Oops. Hehehe, funny end to that paragraph.

I was never in a place in a church where I felt like I could ask the questions that I was dealing with.

I think I can honestly say that in most of the congregations I have been a part of I have never had this problem. I don’t know how that helps you, but it makes me feel thankful.

Where I could say that I like beer.

Beer! What is that? Just kidding. Here’s a message from our church’s online mailing list:

Subject: Beer Tasting

Beer Tasting will be held Sept. 23 by majority availability. Same time: 3:00 PM. Same place: my parent’s home.

Don’t forget, we will have the Octoberfest theme, so German food will be our theme. Let’s try for a balanced menu. More to follow as we get closer!

I grew up, spiritually, around a group of people that believed that God was about redeeming everything unto himself, even beer.

Where I could cuss and that would be okay.

Define okay.

So, I’m still trying to figure it out. It’s messy but I’m cool with that. What about you?

Oh yeah, I’m cool with that! I will spend a lifetime trying to figure it out. Thank God that we don’t have to figure it all out.

The ironic thing though is that I believe God reveals “it” in the form of the universal consensus of the church. I can believe that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all (St. Vincent of Lerins) and actually have a lot of room for flexibility, questions, and opinions.

What “church” is being discussed?

I have decided to not attend a organized staffed church. For, me I need small group discussion and connection that takes place outside of a “traditional” church.

Call it my evangelical roots, but I believe that the bible (and the historic church) chose to refer to the bride of Christ as one body (Romans 12:3-5; I Corinthians 10:16-17, 12; Ephesians 4; Colossians 3:14-16) for a reason. You quickly changed subjects after this. It would be nice to hear you develop this more and share more thoughts on this matter.

I am talking about a body of humanity. I don’t see the body that Paul described here as one that is happening or working. And I don’t see it as something that people want to work. People want different religions and different beliefs. I am talking about a body of charity. A body of people brining about love and goodness to this world. People that are working to do this is a body that I believe is feasible. It is a body that is made up of different parts but is working to one goal; a selfless love for all humankind. A body that I think God would be pleased with.

I don’t think it is a difference between generations. I think that would be an incorrect assessment. There will always be people who just don’t have their priorities straight, young or old. Lord have mercy on me!

I also am developing my thoughts on this as you can see. I wrote this may be a difference between young and old. That some not all might do this in a church.

So are you staying out because of the way you saw things being run in the backdrop? In an ideal world, why would you go to church?

In an ideal world I would be apart of a group of people that are not confined to walls. A place where people have open dialog and a place where more money time and generosity goes to facilitating the world. This takes priority over making sure there is a wow effect that gets people into the group to bring about more money, to bring about more wow effects, to bring about more money, more people…..and this devastating cycle that has nothing to do with Christ. It’s actually a simple idea and not so contrived. This world doesn’t need presentations and regurgitations. It needs selflessness and giving.

Where I could cuss and that would be okay.
Define okay.

Okay just means that I don’t feel like villain if I say a cuss word. Now, I want to have respect for the company that I am keeping, so if it would offend someone, I try to not insert any cuss words. If it happens, I don’t want to get shunned. But, again, I won’t pretend like I don’t. You just have to watch out for the people around you.

The ironic thing though is that I believe God reveals “it” in the form of the universal consensus of the church. I can believe that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all (St. Vincent of Lerins) and actually have a lot of room for flexibility, questions, and opinions.

Okay, this universal consensus makes no sense to me.

I want to thank you for taking the time to read and respond. I want to say this gracefully but I also just feel that when my words are picked apart, it makes me want to get back into my shell and cease discussion. But thanks for responding and thanks for your inserts of approval.

A body of people brining about love and goodness to this world.

I love that quote. I definitely believe this body that you speak of is God’s church, in the truest sense of the word. I believe we can be like that and in our greatest moments have been and are that.

This world doesn’t need presentations and regurgitations. It needs selflessness and giving

Again, amen! In an ideal world, I would probably go to church to worship God. Worshipping God may be singing spiritual songs to Christ with my brothers and sisters, participating in the sacraments, and learning through others, but it may also be praying for others, giving to the poor, and ministering to the downtrodden and burnout.

Okay, this universal consensus makes no sense to me

What I am basically saying is that I am open to what the whole church universally believes. I don’t have to have it all figured out, the universal church (you, my wife, my priest, my coworker) teach me. And I find that this universal church offers a great deal of flexibility and individuality.

I want to thank you for taking the time to read and respond. I want to say this gracefully but I also just feel that when my words are picked apart, it makes me want to get back into my shell and cease discussion.

Leslie, thank you for taking time to respond to my comments. I was hoping that you all don’t feel like I am trying to give a blow-by-blow, tit-for-tat defense against what you are saying. I honestly don’t feel like writing is the best medium for expressing conversation (even the emergent conversation). I am so sorry if you felt like I was picking your words apart. I like to believe this is the way I would have chatted with you if you had been conversing with me face-to-face. It seems like something or some way I wrote that conversation struck you the wrong way, and for that I am truly sorry.

thanks for responding and thanks for your inserts of approval.

Oh boy! I must have really come across like a jerk! Again “inserts of approval” was not exactly what I was trying to communicate. I am sorry. Please have mercy on me.

Dear Joe R,

I’m not offended. Let’s be friends.

Good. OK.

[...] Leslie [...]