reimagining Capitalism (part one)
So here’s the deal. I’m not a communist. I’m not a socialist. I think both systems are flawed. But honestly, I’d also like to be able to tell you that I’m no longer a capitalist. Unfortunately, it would be rather hypocritical and ignorant of me as a small business owner and as someone embedded in a suburban community to ignore how heavily influenced I am by this economic system of capitalism.
But it’s funny how when my thinking begins to change on a subject, how painfully aware I become of the situations around me that critique my previous understandings.
There have been a few situations over the last couple of weeks that have left me rethinking most of my previous thoughts on capitalism.
I’ll do a quick run through today to serve as the backdrop and then I’ll further my thoughts the next couple of days as I think out loud about my role in a capitalist economy and how Jesus is really causing problems for me in that area.
Most of you know how I struggle with supporting corporations like Wal-Mart and Home Depot. Who are notorious for their lack of proper health care for their employees and have many questionable practices when it comes to the factories that they run overseas. I’m not a moralist about this and I don’t intend to make anyone feel guilty about their shopping there. I still find myself in both stores at times. However, I do think it is important that we bring things into the light that are hidden in the dark.
Recently, I’ve become just as frustrated with Target. While Target does have a better history of treating their employees fairly and running their factories with humanity, I’m coming to see that they are also built upon a flawed system. If you’ve ever tried to return something to Target, you know exactly what I’m talking about. You can’t return anything without a receipt and even then you have to jump through hoops in order to exchange something or get your money back. We tried to exchange a Christmas gift that was missing a part. We were unable to exchange it because they were out of stock. We couldn’t even get a raincheck or a refund. We were told to try another store.
I’m finding that once companies have your money, they are no longer concerned about customer service. They realize that 99% of us will continue to shop and give them our money rather than find an alternative.
My DIRECTV problems are documented here. They rolled out the red carpet for you to purchase their services. But once the purchase was made, they roll the red carpet back up and give you the run around. You’re already bound by a contract so there is no need to treat you fairly and reasonably and with common sense.
The same thing happened with Bellsouth. I canceled my service Friday and agreed to keep the service for an extra week as I transitioned to another provider. But on Saturday my internet got disconnected while my phone service remained untouched. After 2 hours of talking to customer service reps, it was brought to my attention that nothing could be done until Monday when billing opened back up to reactivate my account. However, by the time I called this morning (another hour of talking) I was told that my service was officially cancelled on Sunday and would take 5 business days to get turned back on. It was deactivated on Saturday (which could be an honest mistake) but since I couldn’t get anyone to approve my account being turned back on until Monday, my account was officially turned off on Sunday. Again, the problem was with the system being flawed with the departments being separated and no one being authorized or competent to remedy my problem. Of course I’m sure that it had something to do with that I was no longer intending to keep my service with them. So for the last week of my contract, I no longer became a priority.
All of this has made me think a lot about capitalism and it’s main premise being profit at the expense of everything else (environment, service, quality, fair compensation). Is capitalism wrong in and of itself? Am I hypocrite because I have a for-profit business? At what point does a business become too big to maintain quality service and compensation to its existing customers? This even has some implications on the nature of large organizations like mega-churches. At what point does an organization simply become too big to stay true to its mission? What happens when that mission is flawed at the foundation?
All of that to say is that I have a whole lot of thoughts swirling around in my head. I’d love to hear what you’re thinking. Although I probably won’t be able to dialogue until tomorrow when another big company comes out an sets up my new internet and television. Again . . . the hypocrisy.
You complaints are of course valid; nobody should have to put up with poor service, however if I may encourage you, have faith in the free markets! Poor service only leads to a loss of customers. That is the beauty of a self-sustained economy that will in the long run show a cyclical (analogous) pattern of up/down quality of service.
Virgil, I would have to agree. I don’t see this as an adequate critique of capitalism. It is a critique of customer service.
Capitalism could show us that in order to make the wanted profit you must keep the customer coming back. If they give you bad service. . . don’t go back. That is how the system works and keeps itself in check.
Bad customer service isn’t a result of Capitalism. Bad customer service can happen in any economic system. I would even argue that capitalism gives less room for bad customer service than other economic structures.
Disagree with you Virgil. If what you said was true, the companies with the best customer service would rise to the top. How do the big box stores own the market then, year after year?
Simply put, people of this country are most influenced by the following things…
-low price (this one will trump most all others)
-selection/stock levels
-marketing
…MUCH more than they are influenced by:
-customer service
-business ethics/social responsibility
-genuine concern of employees/customer service personnel.
Until those facts change, businesses have no reason to cater to the minority that will stop supporting a company on the basis of the latter three as you have, Josh. There’s just not enough money in it.
Hate to be all cynical and stuff, but that’s how I see it.
Eric, you have to see the big picture when talking economics. In a free-market economy, price trumps everything; that’s the essence of commercial human interaction. Thus if you create an x/y graph of price vs. quality of service, the price and quality of service will usually be directly proportional. The delta of the this relationship can even be empirically observed mathematically by dividing the two variables (price x and service y) and obtaining a proportionality constant, K.
For example, if a store “sells” a widget for zero dollars (x=0), the customer will have almost no concern for the quality of service because the low price trumps it in every instance; thus the proportionality constant will be zero (k=x/y). As the price goes up, the quality of service will automatically go up; should the service not go up, regardless of the reason, the relationship demands that price will go down. That is why a hotel that charged $500 per night for a room will have infinitely better service than a motel that sells $25 a night rooms. It is a self-balancing relationship dictated by the freedom of the markets.
The only time when this gets screwed up is when the government steps in and ruins the freedom of the market with regulations that either inflate or deflate the price, thus artificially putting in place something that is not there.
I find it very troubling that Emergent Christians do not understand those very basic economic concepts, yet they insist on passing judgments on corporate entities like Walmart for example. Healthcare, high salaries, minimum wages, etc - they all have to come from somewhere…Walmart does not print dollar bills in the back of the store as you guys seem to be suggesting. It is not up to the government to force corporations into offering better salaries or work benefits to their employees….this is not Hugo Chavez country.
On the other hand, I believe you are perfectly free to boycott Walmart for whatever reason you desire. Just make sure you understand the economic forces at work before you make such decisions.
nick,
i fully intend to develop my argument over the next couple of days.
virgil,
thanks for stopping by. its not wal-mart fault for making money. if people are dumb enough to continue to pay for it, then they have every right in a capitalist economy to go out and get theres. however, if we live with a different idea of economy and money (i.e. the kingdom of god), then we can’t sit idly by as wal-mart exploits its employees locally and abroad. i would agree that it’s not the governments responsibility as well. but it should be ours who live with a different way to keep mega corporations accountable to reasonable and sustainable ways of making profit. i choose to do this by avoiding wal-mart to the best of my ability. i like your analogy of the widgets. and i’m definitely for a free market economy. however, i think it proves and assumes that all that who are buying widgets are out to get the cheapest product. regardless of consequence. i’m less concerned about the end product if it is brought about by poor means.
eric,
as always i’ll be glad when you quit blogging about pirates and such and focus on ecomonics. because you what we call smart.
Note: I understand your blanket comment regarding Emergent Christians wasn’t primarily directed at me, but it certainly was inspired by said discussion.
Regarding your graph example it assumes no barriers to entry and no monopolistic forces at work, which you neglected to mention. When considering these forces, a reduction in service does not necessarily in a reduction in price, at least not by a proportional amount that K would imply. It results in a reduction of quality of life for consumers, and an increase in net profit margin for the company. I’m not saying this is good or bad, it is what it is.
This is why Microsoft (with its 90%+ market share on non-commercial computing) can release software with horrible security holes that result in huge problems worldwide and still be a darling company of American business.
And yes, I understand that over years/decades these problems eventually fade away, as some finally says “enough is enough!” and starts their own company to compete with the offender. This process is why competition is so good for the consumer. It, however, is not a reason to gloss over this issue, either.
For what its worth, not one person had mentioned a single thing about the government regulating anything in this conversation. I won’t dwell on it, other than to say that regulations regarding health and safety are absolutely necessary, as our predecessors in this country have proven time and time again they will let such things slide to earn a buck.
As for corporations, individually: I don’t pass judgment on their policies, I pass judgment on the society that puts the needs of the shareholders above all others. Of course Management is going to do whatever it takes to raise that net profit as high as utterly possible… shareholders can kick their butts to the curb if they’re not satisfied.
Ultimately, I don’t know nor am claiming to have an idea as to how to resolve this. The human goal of ever-increasing standards of success (in this case growth and margin) is not a bad or immoral thing. The supply-chain technology and waste-cutting practices that Wal-Mart brought to the retailing and manufacturing industries were an incredible boon for this country. Whether I shop there or not, I enjoy the prosperity it netted simply by living in this country.
The problem is when this goal is elevated above every other concern that problems creep out. I tend to split with Josh when it comes to customer service, I find not doing business with companies with particularly egregious CS to be more a self-preservation motive… i.e. “so I don’t get screwed by them too.” I speak more regarding treatment of workers, environmental concerns, whatnot.
So where does that leave us? With what Josh said above, about bringing what was dark to light. I can’t speak for him, so I’ll put it in context of what I’m learning. Up until now, I’ve only seen the responsibility of money in two lights: how I earn it, and where I give/donate it to. That is to say, I made reasonably sure that I wasn’t cheating anyone to earn my living, and that which I gave my money to was “worthy” of the gift. Not wasteful, not fraudulent, nor given to someone who already has plenty.
More recently (last 6 months), I’ve come to see that where I spend my money is just as important, if not more important than the above choices. What heuristic you use in doing this, I have no solid way to mandate. The point is… I’ve recognized that turning a blind eye to the topic all-together is irresponsible, and very poor stewardship.
This is one of those problems that will always be with us. If we choose to allow completely free markets (or markets with very little regulation), we will be overrun by those who will choose to exploit workers and cheat purchasers. If we choose to allow heavy regulation and severely restrict the freedom of markets, we will find that we have centralized the power to such a degree that it corrupts the regulatory structure that we have put in place.
The question isn’t between one versus the other. The question is about where are we now, and what is the proper balance? Your answer to that depends largely on your experience. If you tend to see the way a particular company treats their workers, you might lean towards more regulation. If you tend to see the way the government forces businesses into making stupid decisions, you might lean towards less.
Overall, though, efforts to seek an earthly utopia will utterly fail. In particular, efforts to control markets to any large degree tend to have disastrous results. Forcing Wal-Mart to “fix” its policies would harm countless other businesses. (Consider how much Sarbanes-Oxley has hurt smaller companies.)
What might be awful by one standard is completely acceptible by other stnadards. Wal-Mart gets a lot of criticism, but people still choose to work there. People still choose to shop there.
As long as people are free to choose whether or not to participate in a transaction, then that transaction will only take place if both parties see a benefit to it. This applies to employment, consumption, and everything in the economic world. That is why I, personally, believe that if we are to err, we need to err on the side of economic freedom, and punish criminal behavior. That is no different than what anyone would suggest from a social standpoint, why is it that society is drifting the other way in terms of economic freedom?
If Wal-Mart is so evil, let it be, and it will eventually implode. If it is using its influence in illegal ways to pursue or retain some type of monopoly, then that should be stopped.
And finally, if you want to know one reason why I think customer service has gotten so poor, I think part of the answer is minimum wage. Companies can’t hire cheap labor to do simple tasks (like, say, cleaning a bathroom). This doesn’t mean that they will pay people more than they are worth (which is what the minimum wage effectively tries to force), it means that they do not hire people who aren’t worth minimum wage, and then place a higher work demand on those that they do hire.
Can someone tell me what the whole “goal” of a “free market”(because the word free only applies to those whose are not enslaved) economy is? Are we created to consume items we don’t need?
The whole lens through which most of this discussion is seen is one of a need for the exsistance of these companies. The distance between what we actually need to live and what we believe we need to live grows further apart everyday for those of us who happen to live in first world and overdeveloped nations.
We have become a society and as a result a people so out of touch with reality that we really believe that making money and lots of it is what life is really all about.
I appreciated the highly thought out responses to this post. I can see that those college level econ courses have really paid off. What the real problem might be is that we believe economics is a valid and justifiable way of not only running companies but peoples lives.
Economics does not allow for the equation of humanity to be factored in and therefore i reject economic theory as a humane way to approach anything that effects humans.
I just figuired i would bring in another perspective for those who might see things differantly and not speak up about it.
With the graph that Virgil introduced us to and the same graph that capitalist economic theory is based on, the highest priority is money, and that’s not the highest priority in God’s Kingdom; it is the other. This change in priority could look very different depending on your convictions and how the other will take the primary importance in your life. If you see enviromental issues as a number one threat to the others, then that will be your focus, if it’s wages, then that. Just remember, some of the others need low prices, and some need jobs, no matter what the wage.
personal suggestions:
buy local
buy fair trade
buy organic
The goal of a free market is to allow people to make decisions based on mutual benefit, without interference from undue regulatory forces. Capitalism isn’t a theory to be applied, it’s reality of what happens when people are free to make decisions on how to use the resources they have.
The consumeristic mentality of our society is really a separate issue. Every economic system leads to excess, when some level of success is achieved - either that excess is centralized (socialism, facism, monarchy, etc.) or that excess is spread around (capitalism). The question is, of course, what do we do with the excess?
The problem of consumerism in our culture, I believe, is the fault of the church. As the church has given up more and more of its responsibility to care for the poor and provide leadership, the government has stepped in to do that job (and quite poorly), and the church has turned to its own comfort.
“Capitalism isn’t a theory to be applied, it’s [a] reality of what happens when people are free to make decisions on how to use the resources they have.”
mmmm…maybe what you meant to say is that Capitalism is the only reality you have ever lived within, so therefore you are led to believe that it is the only logical conclusion that people can come to when given the freedom to choose what they will do with the resources they have at their disposal (keeping in mind that many of those resources are only “free” for one group because they were stolen from another group).
Eric, you’ve got some great thoughts here. I appreciate them greatly.
Josh, Glad you’re opening up this topic. While others have noted that this post seems more about customer service, it seems to me that you may be laying the ground work for something deeper. And when it comes to capitalism, it’s not really all that cut and dry with easy answers.
If it’s worth something to you . . . in my study of the topic I choose to avoid Wal-Mart (because they are scum bags who treat 3rd world citizens like shit, and 1st world citizens like disposable consumers) as well as Target. This link may be of help. Instead I try to stick with Costco, Trader Joe’s and Whole Foods (though we do shop at Market Basket as well). Above all though, the power of purchasing locally has hugely beneficial effects i believe. If you can find a local CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) i’d say you’re in good hands.
Looking forward to the rest of the series.
“mmmm…maybe what you meant to say is that Capitalism is the only reality you have ever lived within”
I love it when people pull this line on me. In fact I did live most of my life under Communism, lived under pseudo-socialism in Germany and now I am living in the U.S. in a mixed-market environment. With all do respect, you guys need to listen more when people with this kind of experience speak: IT DOES NOT WORK!
Any system in which the power of the government is used to dictate economic policy will fail. The majority will always be the “less fortunate” and they will always try to find way to siphon capital by unjust means from the wealthy. I find it absolutely mind blowing that those who complain about economic injustice are more than ready and willing to unjustly practice income redistribution in order to promote their view of the Kingdom of God.
Jesus taught quite clearly that “The Kingdom of God is not of this world.” It is a spiritual kingdom that cannot be manipulated, increased or improved by economic systems or by worldly governments. It perhaps can be manifested in this world, but it is not of this world. With that said, the relational faith Christ commended us to, manifests itself in the immediate community, not at a federal level. That is why I find it so hypocritical when so many people blog about the AIDS and poverty problems in Africa while homeless people are shivering down the street from their cozy apartment. They blog about how bad capitalism is on a $2,000 Powerbook, listening to a $350 iPod, drinking a $4 Starbucks mocha. Are you kidding me?
I have seen friends die in the streets of Romania as a result of rejecting Communism and big government. I’ll be damned if as an American I will stand behind anything that even remotely hints of that. You want poverty to disappear? Teach people how to create opportunities rather than wait for someone to give them one. Teach them to rely less on the government and more on their own work. Teach them just as Jesus taught, to invest their God-given talant (and talent) into something that doubles or triples its value. Instead of attacking Walmart, how about learning to work with them and benefit your community and those in need?
And for the love of God, stop whining about Walmart. Nobody gives a crap! I love spending $150 on groceries there instead of $300, which allows me to increase my gift for the Church.
IT DOES NOT WORK!
No…this is not necessarily a logical conclusion based off of your experiences. It did not work in your situation, nor has it worked in many situations. But rarely have we seen a true communist/socialist nation. Instead we have seen dictatorships that have moved into power under the guise of a socialist revolution.
That is why I find it so hypocritical when so many people blog about the AIDS and poverty problems in Africa while homeless people are shivering down the street from their cozy apartment.
Right…because we can’t care about more than one group of people?
Teach people how to create opportunities rather than wait for someone to give them one.
I wish it was that easy. I work for a tutoring center teaching wealthy kids how to get better SAT scores. Do you think poor kids have any access to similar opportunities? Not at 40-50 dollars an hours they don’t.
I love spending $150 on groceries there instead of $300
I highly doubt that you save 50% by shopping at Wal-Mart.
It’s been hinted at here, but I don’t think it has been said outright.
There’s nothing wrong with capitalism. I think it’s really incorrect to lay the blame on a system. Any system, if poorly managed, will fail.
In my industry, I have the opportunity to work with people from all over the world; U.K., Russia, Kazakistan, Belgium, Holland, and Israel to name but a few. They all tell me how impressive it is that so many people can live so well so cheaply. This is a direct benefit of a capitalist economy.
The unfortunate side, of course, is that it allows the freedom for greedy CEO’s to exploit workers and consumers alike by minimizing costs at both ends. Especially in the growing world market.
It’s sad yes, but to blame it solely on capitalism is an error.
In a capitalist world I feel encouraged to stand out, to make a difference, be creative, and to be the absolute best at what I do.
Also, I’ve heard that dish network has wicked awesome customer service. I’m canceling my cable after the second rate hike in four months.
“And for the love of God, stop whining about Wal-Mart. Nobody gives a crap!”
Maybe it is for the love of God that people do “whine” about Wal-Mart or any other corporate monolith that has unjust business practices. And maybe Wal-Mart is able to continue doing what they do because of people “not giving a crap!â€
Virgil, I do apologize for the assumption that you had never lived beneath any system other than American Capitalism. Your past experiences help me to better understand why you are such a staunch believer in this system of Capitalism, i sometimes wonder how i would view the system i live under if i had not grown up in America.
I guess part of what i am hinting at (and maybe what Josh is hinting at as well) is trying to imagine a different world that doesn’t exist at this particular point in history. The original questions that Josh asked in his post were more concerned with how things might be, not how they have been or continue to be. I think its important to begin envisioning what the future could look like and that begins by critically assessing the current state of things and rejecting that which we see as dehumanizing and deplorable. Is it so bad to begin seeing things as they might be?
With that said, I am not advocating some kind of Utopian vision of the future that disregards the current state of the world. I am very aware of the world that surrounds me and I attempt to not use idealism as a method of escape from the reality of that world.
And Virgil, please spare us the Horatio Alger Ideology (“You want poverty to disappear? Teach people how to create opportunities rather than wait for someone to give them one. Teach them to rely less on the government and more on their own work.â€). That train of thought works for an ever-shrinking percentage of people. The majority of people that are born into poverty will die in poverty. There are more “rags to rags†stories going around than “rags to richesâ€.
No…this is not necessarily a logical conclusion based off of your experiences.
Yes it is, and this is the point where I usually get pissed because you speak out of ignorance and complete disregard for all the millions of people who have died so far at the hands of people trying to implement your ideas. When someone says “communism doesn’t work” you guys say “you never experienced it.” When I say “I experienced it” you tell me “it can be done better.” Yeah…what a load of crap! Those people saying “we can try again” like you do always end up in power taking advantage of everyone else. It’s been happening for hundreds of years. Show me ONE single Communist country where everyone is equal and benefits equally from the resources of the country. You can’t do that because it’s not doable. Only insane people keep trying the same thing over and over again and expect to get different results every time. And unfortunately you insist on repeating it, and more people will pay the price of your failed experiments for many hundreds of years in the future of humanity. Chavez now thinks he can do it in Venezuela. 20 years from now his country will likely be in ruins with the jails being filled up with Christians and disidents and 95% of the population living in abject poverty.
Right…because we can’t care about more than one group of people?
That’s right…and all you do is care and little else. Children in Africa don’t give a damn about Americans blogging about their AIDS problem. You get some satisfaction that you care, which certainly makes you feel better and not as guilty about living in an evil capitalist country.
I wish it was that easy. I work for a tutoring center teaching wealthy kids how to get better SAT scores. Do you think poor kids have any access to similar opportunities? Not at 40-50 dollars an hours they don’t.
I do not subscribe to government education. We home school our children and do not subscribe to the idea that other people owe my children an education. I take responsibility for their education and I could not care what their SAT scores are, or anyone else’s SAT scores. Education is also not a constitutional right. It’s something you EARN, not something you deserve, and earning requires labor, work, struggle, fighting for something you think is worth achieving, not going after those who achieved it in the past and taking it away from them by force.
I came from Romania with $100 bucks in my pocket. I went to college but never finished to actually get a degree. I make a very good living - it has nothing to do with SAT scores, college degree, lucky upbringing, wealthy parents, growing up in the right side of town, etc. I don’t have ANY of this yet I was motivated enough to start a business, learn the ropes, sell it, move on and now have an awesome job, making a ton of money. I never asked anyone for anything and do not owe anyone anything (except God) and I will take credit for my hard work any day. In your Communist utopia I would never be able to live my potential, because you claim to know better than me how to meet my needs and the needs of my family.
That train of thought works for an ever-shrinking percentage of people. The majority of people that are born into poverty will die in poverty. There are more “rags to rags†stories going around than “rags to richesâ€.
That’s because you keep looking for solutions in the wrong places. Jesus did not teach us to help the poor with money we take from everyone else around us by means of taxes. There is no excuse for such immoral proposals. Rather Jesus gave us the parable of the rich master and the three servants, and put forth principles of creating wealth, investing, producing.
What you are suggesting is that there is no such thing as personal responsibility and that the responsibility of the rich goes right out the window because some rich people hoard the wealth and they refuse to use it the way you think they should. It is becoming more clear that virtually everyone posting here (with derek’s and clint’s exception) knows virtually NOTHING about sound economics. If you did, you would understand that without rich people there would be no factories, no jobs, no wealth to be invested, and no Walmart for Americans to go to and buy stuff dirt cheap. Rich people do not “hoard” wealth. They put their money in banks and in investments which in turn build factories, create jobs and expand technology into new innovative fields benefiting the whole world, not just the wealthy.
Now with my apologies to Josh for my tone in the last two comments, I will leave you guys to your Socialism (or whatever alias you want to give it) and wish you all the best. I hope Josh understands that I have a hard time dealing with the things brought forth here when I paid for those social experiments dearly. And please…take a class in economics somewhere if you have a chance. For folks expecting everyone else to be open minded about your proposals you could certainly open your own minds to free markets a bit.
Virgil,
Those are some interesting “talk radio” arguments you bring in. I am still looking for where you are pulling names like Communism and Socialism from in any of the statements i (or the other commenters) have said. None of us have been advocating for nor stating that we are for or against Communism or Socialism, you have unfortunately projected that onto the conversation.
“What you are suggesting is that there is no such thing as personal responsibility and that the responsibility of the rich goes right out the window…”
No, i never said anything about the rich. I think you must be trying to argue your point with someone outside of this blog post, because the arguments you just brought up had nothing to do with what i was talking about.
I understand where your arguments are coming from but the relevancy of them being brought up here and now is beyond me.
Maybe its time for me to dip out of this conversation, I’m thinking we might be using Josh’s blog as our own personal soapbox. I’m not really down with that. Sorry Josh.
Peace.
smoke if ya got em!
[...] We’ll I know I’ve been gone for quite awhile now. I have had all sorts of problems with internet and satellite television around these parts. Read about them here and here. Needless to say (if you read those post, or if you have ever lived without internet after you have lived with internet) it was a frustrating time in my life. [...]
I don’t want to be someone that assumes that criticisms of capitalism are equated with desires for socialism or communism. Still, to address most criticisms of capitalism, the solutions lead you down the path of socialism.
Highly progressive tax structures, elimination of (or limitations on) inheritance, public education, government-provided health care. These are all hallmarks of communism, and were all proposed by Marx.
We certainly need to be aware of countries that have implemented such proposals, and the corruption and problems that inevitably follow.
There’s a reason why we long for the world to be right - we were created to live in such a world. But we have to recognize that this world will never fit the pattern that we long to live in. Not until God renews it, completely. Our longing should not be for a perfect earth in this life - our longing should be for our eternal communion with God. Where everything IS right. My goal in this life is to be obedient to God, and to be a good steward with what He has entrusted to me. And let Him renew the earth in His time - which He promised He would do.
perhaps there are better ways than capitalism (profit is the main goal), communism (control is the main goal), and socialism (deconstruction of the individual is the main goal).
perhaps what the early church was experimenting in with acts was radically different than our 3 alternatives.
i’m not a socialist. i’m not a communist. i’m just realizing that despite the blatant hypocrisy of it, i don’t know that i want to be a capitalist.
first post coming later today.
Josh, why do you feel the need to label yourself a capitalist, communist, socialist or anything else? You’re just Josh. (which is a good thing from what i understand)
You happen to live in a society of money-hungry capitalists. That doesn’t make you one. Virgil lived under power-hungry communists. That doesn’t make him one either.
Derek is right, “…we have to recognize that this world will never fit the pattern that we long to live in.”
You’re not a hypocrite just because you use the same economic system of someone else who abuses it. It just means your not selfish as they may be.
Does Jesus want us shopping at Wal-Mart? I don’t know. Isn’t that kind of a strange question?
Ah, I feel better.
i agree that the world will never fit the pattern. but i believe we are to live now as we are to live then. not bowing out and saying oh well it’s too much to ask that the world’s economics change. or thats something that we can’t change. it is always the task of the called out community to live the way of the future in the present.
i’ve never said i’m a communist. or want to do away with capitalism. the title is reimagining capitalism. meaning what are old/new ways we can creatively critique the overall aim of capitalism and the big and small companies that run the engine. and what are some old/new ways we can prophetically create a better alternative.
which i will hopefully finish up shortly.
I think one of the reasons Virgil commented the way that he did was that efforts to “fix” the free market inevitably lead to oppression - and he experienced the effects. This is quite different from what was encouraged in the New Testament - which was voluntary participation in a community that shared everything they had. But you simply can’t take that principle and apply it to involuntary participation. It won’t work.
[...] I had no idea this was going to be such a passionate conversation. I’ve really enjoyed your thoughts. I hope you guys didn’t waste all of the good stuff on my first post that was just giving you a little backdrop for what I’ve been thinking. Hopefully, I can work some of this out over the next couple of days in these posts. [...]
[...] All of this is just to say stop. Consider the world around you. The little things that we rarely consider. It will open our eyes to a much healthier perspective about this life and it just may help us to follow Jesus in a way that is more full.  I am just as guilty of this as anyone else and I often just tend to not think about the small things. My friend Josh Brown is writing a little bit on Capitalism in America. I do not agree with all of his thoughts but they have been helpful to me in stopping to consider something i do not regularly consider. Part 1 is here & part 2 is here.  [...]
Whisper to Josh: your doing a great thing, in that your willing to challenge the indoctrinated thinking about economy in this country. Interesting that you got there by being disappointed with customer service, but good nonetheless. reimagining is key. If we start thinking about how we can live a Kingdom of God economy now, we will be going in the right direction. I’ll read your second post now too.
Just food for thought:
http://blog.iamnotashamed.net/2006/01/05/why-i-dont-shop-at-walmart/
I think I would proclaim myself socialist, and on the way to communism. Customer service aside; how do mega corporations manage to survive in a capitalist economy? The people at the top get the cheese, and I mean big cheese. The executive that was responsible for leading Delta Airlines into bankruptcy court left her position and received millions of dollars as a severance package. Meanwhile the workers were faced with a depreciated retirement package. Capitalism is not a Kingdom focused economy. Yes, each person has been endowed with the ability to seek financial freedom (that comes from an evangelical financial advisor). But the problem is this: Can a person obtain financial freedom within a capitalist economy? It has become glaringly obvious that they cannot. It is strange that most evangelicals will proclaim that this is a nation founded upon Christian principles, yet Kensyian economic philosophy has become the supreme denominator. It reaches into every aspect of our society ( the poor are poor because they do not work hard enough. Dickens wrote about the problem with this train of thought). One of the questions that perplexes me as I am studying to get my education degree is what is the purpose of an education. Within the traditional American bulwark an education is the means to a better job, which leads to more money, which leads to a better quality of life, etc. Is that what we have become? In America we do not have outbreaks of tuberculosis, or diptheria, malaria, or any other diseases. In America we only have a lack of entertainment. And that is the reduction of American capitalism. Entertainment. Disengagement from our brothers and sisters.
I know you’ve written a lot on this, but I’m starting at the beginning. To me the free market is this mathematical ideal state where customers who are totally free to choose and have perfect information pick the best service, then all the other service providers who lost out compare themselves to the best and maybe change. The free market even in a perfect world requires you to be a moralist (if I haven’t misunderstood you): It moulds to your decisions, and if you ask them to, people will grind their employees to dust to get you the lowest price. If you think that Walmart etc have a bad policy, just don’t shop there, or decide how much extra you are willing to pay for better treatment, compared to the competitors. You cannot trust the market to consider things you don’t, because its built out of lots of people like you! But that ignores local-ness, control over access to resources, limited information and all kinds of funny business that makes markets inefficient and realistic. So do I trust the invisible hand? Yes, but it belongs to God, and he knows how we should do business! The thought experiments require too much of people for me to trust them as a model of our world, as I know when I buy something I feel very clearly the lack of information I have about it. That doesn’t stop me wanting to do everything I can to spread information of course, but it has to be in human-readable form, and variety engineering is hard! Oooh, one more idea: I would suggest the best way to get a picture of what is redeemable in something is to find someone who likes it! So don’t write off communism and socialism until you have talked to a few of their supporters and know why they like them.