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The Problems of Deism & It’s Possibilities: Praying For Rain

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The Overview, Some Problems, A Google Chat With Eric

It’s been a couple of weeks since I’ve felt like contributing anything else to my thoughts on Deism. I think I’ll give a few more thoughts and talk about what got me thinking about this in the first place. I had a healthy conversation with Seth about this a couple of weeks ago after a Sunday Vespa drive down to Decatur. He pushed back with some insightful thoughts and I gave my feedback. I wish I could have transcribed that conversation because it feels like such a better way to share than blogging about it. But I’m going to do my best to recreate it as best as I can.

It all started with this talk of praying for rain due to the drought in Northern Georgia. I’m not sure why, but the whole idea just bothered me. And I guess I started thinking about prayer in relation to natural and supernatural events.

If you aren’t aware, Georgia is in the middle of a pretty big drought. Bad enough that the entire metro of Atlanta might run out of water in a couple of months. So kind of a big deal. In response to this escalating problem that is only getting worse by the day, many people have been begging us to pray for rain. The governor has run a few commercials, as well as hosted a “prayer day”. Many people have begun placing signs in their yards and businesses are using their marquees to urge people to do the same.

Now I suppose these are good thoughts by good people. But it really bothers me. Perhaps I’m the one with all of the issues. But I find it such an odd thing to beg God for intervention.

I’m not saying that God doesn’t intervene into the world. The incarnation kind of proves that he does. I’m also not saying that God hasn’t intervened throughout the course of history at the request (and on the behalf) of his people. God has intervened before and will in all likelihood intervene again. Who am I to say what God can and can’t do?

But I would like to raise some questions (some questions that I scratched the surface with here).

Why do we use God like a Get Out of Jail Free Card? Meaning, we get ourselves into this mess with our lack of stewardship, over-consumption, and poor planning . . . and then we expect God to get us out of it? It might be one thing if we just realized how much of a role we played in screwing up and then asked God to bail us out. While I still probably wouldn’t be on board, I could at least give you the benefit of the doubt. But to pretend like we have had nothing to do with the problem and then expect God to fix the problem? There’s a big disconnect there for me.

And what about when it comes to rain? So we pray that God will make it rain here in North Georgia? Well every effect has a cause. And if it rains here, somewhere else in the world is going to be effected as well. So what if we’re praying for rain here but someone else is praying for no rain and sun? Is it really that simple as God counting up each side who ever has the most (numbers or earnest) wins and God grants their request like a magic genie?

I think we give God to much credit sometime. Maybe we are not just the problem, but perhaps we are the solution as well. Perhaps instead of asking God to bail us out, he actually wants us to figure out the systemic issues that we created that caused the problem in order to fix the root issues instead of just expecting God to treat the symptoms.

Perhaps that’s a good way to describe my frustration. I’m ok with an interventionist God who helps fix “the roots” but I’m not ok with an interventionist God who fixes the symptoms.

And I’m just musing here, but I think the connection between a Get Out of Jail Free/Santa Claus God and a God who causes events in the world to happen is rather close. The whole “all things work together for the good” God. I’m thinking that those who have a strong belief in this type of God who causes events (drought, hurricanes, tsunamis, etc) to happen as a sort of weeding out or a test of some sorts, will probably have a pretty strong belief in a God who intervenes to pick up the pieces when we shatter the mirror.

But I’ll talk about that tomorrow.

Listening: Lon Gisland EP by Beirut

Discussion

4 comments for “The Problems of Deism & It’s Possibilities: Praying For Rain”

  1. I’m a bit torn by the governor’s call to pray for rain and the signage. I’ll put that aside for a minute, though.

    There is something simple, something beautiful about a prayer for rain in the midst of drought. Done with humility and thanks, it recognizes that God is the author of creation and that we are inescapably dependent upon his provision. We’re called to cry out to God in times of trouble not so that he’ll deliver us from our momentary trouble and let us get on with our days. Instead, we must continually perform this ritual of humility, supplication, and thanks, thus affirming the dynamic relationship between YHWH and his people.

    In this case, I agree with you though. Somehow I don’t think the state (or the church) will spend a week or a month giving thanks to God for the rain. Instead, the rain will become “like water” when it comes - expected, even demanded - without gratitude.

    On the “symptoms / root cause” discussion, I don’t know Georgia well but I have studied the southwest - particularly Arizona, Nevada, and New Mexico. The food, water, and energy infrastructure in this area is highly vulnerable. Building major cities there was a mistake. They’re completely dependent upon water diverted from other sources, resulting in increased evaporation over the long distance and vulnerability to contamination and drought. Food must be trucked in from afar, promising hard times when peak oil hits. Figure in the extremely high energy usage for AC during the summer and poor public transit, and you’ve got one of the most unsustainable regions on the planet. I don’t see prayer getting us out of this jam.

    Even so, I have friends who are farmers in Northern Indiana and know what a “drought” means for them. I’ll be praying for rain.

    Posted by Scott | November 20, 2007, 8:43 am
  2. “Perhaps instead of asking God to bail us out, he actually wants us to figure out the systemic issues that we created that caused the problem in order to fix the root issues instead of just expecting God to treat the symptoms.

    Perhaps that’s a good way to describe my frustration. I’m ok with an interventionist God who helps fix “the roots” but I’m not ok with an interventionist God who fixes the symptoms.”

    Yet sometimes the root problem is that we don’t actually pursue God and rely on Him. We normally ignore Him and try to take care of things ourselves. The Bible is clear about God creating environments that cause people to turn towards Him. Droughts certainly can fall into that category.

    As far as Georgia is concerned, yes, I think we should be praying for rain. But I do think that Purdue was elected to do something, and while I think it’s fine that he wants to pray for rain (and ask others to do the same), I think he should also show some real leadership and stand up to Florida, Alabama, the Army Corps of Engineers, and the environmentalists and declare the water in Lake Lanier as belonging to Georgia. Let them sue. Meanwhile, our water supply and even the integrity of the lake is at stake (something I’m surprised nobody is talking about).

    The problem here isn’t overconsumption or overdevelopment, though they contribute to the intensity of the problem. The real problem right now is the years we have had of low rainfall, and the drought we are experiencing right now. Asking God for help is an appropriate response.

    Posted by Derek | November 20, 2007, 10:23 am
  3. scott. i agree with you. i’m not prepared to throw away prayer. or to dismiss it’s formative power. so i agree it’s a legitimate (even primary) form vehicle for communication and relationship between creation and creator. my proposal is that it is much more of an inward/global act, in that it is humanity in conversation with god, not attempting to align god to humanity, but instead align ourselves with god’s visions and dreams for the world. in that way it is individualistic so that through it we begin to see god’s dreams for the world. so it is inward transformation. at which point it shifts and becomes local and global. if transformation has truly happened and we are getting a bigger and bigger picture of god’s dreams for the worlds then we begin to act and “be the change we want to see in the world” instead of relying on god to bail us out.

    again . . . this is not to say that god doesn’t, can’t, or won’t bail us out. but rather his direct intervention is not or should not be the first or primary goal of prayer. rather prayer is the medium in which we align to god. when we beg god to intervene without our inner transformation and without us becoming the change and solution, we are seeking to align god to our ways, agenda, etc. at which point he becomes the commercial, consumerist, santa claus god to which we bring christmas lists.

    nick made a good point the other day when he said he’s fasting from “asking god” for anything. while i don’t know that i’m willing to never ask god for anything, i think this is a useful perspective for us to realize that prayer is not always about asking but rather becoming.

    in this light, prayer becomes much more relational, holy, transformative, spiritual, disciplined, etc.

    Posted by Josh | November 20, 2007, 12:12 pm
  4. derek. it’s a shame we didn’t get a chance to hang out more and just talk like normal people before we got to come back to the blog and take up our polar opposite positions. :)

    “The Bible is clear about God creating environments that cause people to turn towards Him.”

    for me, the bible isn’t so clear about God creating disasters to make people trust him more. that type of God sounds pretty sketchy to me. i’m going to cause pain and harm and catastrophe in order to make people trust me. i’m going to create death and destruction so that i can give people a chance to accept life and hope?

    it’s an odd way of doing things if you ask me. sounds more like some sort of tribal, blood god than YHWH.

    this is my blog tomorrow so i don’t want to rush ahead. but i’m just not so sure that god creates disaster in order to get us to trust him. i think disasters are a natural outcome of a world in disrepair and colored by sin.

    and i’m not sure the answer is for sonny to butch up to everyone else and tell them we’re keeping the water. again, that sounds pretty tribal, colonial, possessive, vindicative, selfish, etc. as if the water is ours and no one else’s because we happen to live on the same land where it resides. to get technical the water comes from the mountains of TN. so if anybody owns it they should. this whole separation of creation, environment, humans, god . . . where everything is all spliced up and separated seems rather far removed from the hebrew way of living integrally with the land.

    and while i agree it is not just the fault of over development. it seems rather shallow for rich suburban christians to start praying when they get 2 months away from running out of water.

    meanwhile for years leading up to that, they can water their perfect green lawns every day for hours on end, take hour long showers, take baths every night, take their SUVs to the carwash once a week and then somehow think that by drinking bottled water now they’re doing their part to become the solution.

    it’s shallow. it’s dishonest. and it’s still not stewardship.

    Posted by Josh | November 20, 2007, 12:22 pm

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