I Remember When Emergent Wasn’t Cool
I certainly am not trying to throw the Church Basement Roadshow under the bus. But I wouldn’t do my “bad boy” image justice if I didn’t call a spade a spade.
I was gallivanting around the web this afternoon and came across some of Professor A.B. Hawthorne’s videos (which are quite hilarious btw). And lo and behold and I stumbled across the Church Basement Roadshow’s Beliefnet website where the guys are blogging and posting videos and other tom-fooleries.
And as fate would have it . . . Beliefnet was selling some ad space for the movie, The List (produced by Fox Faith - oh the irony). YouTube Trailer Here. The advertising was certainly subtle as there was a full rotating banner across the width of the page. And an ever so small banner hogging a 1/4th of the screen in the right sidebar. Now if you think I’m just being rude or making to much of it . . . check out the site for The List and read some of the theology and purpose of the movie. Let’s be honest, it’s a cheap knock-off of the Left Behind movies. And looks like one of those Saturday afternoon movies that you find replayed over and over on the Lifetime network. (Be sure to check out the interactive Bible study under the downloads section).
Now I know the Church Basement Road show guys had no hand in picking the ads. And while I’m making light of the situation, I do think it raises an important question of what happens when the fringe becomes part of the mainstream. It’s a cycle that has repeated itself over and over throughout the history of the Jesus movement. Those at the margins move towards the center and soon become an institution. Emergent Village has taken a lot of steps over the years to keep from fossilizing or institutionalizing. But I just find it an odd thing to see Tony, Mark, and Doug utilizing jest, satire, and the art of play standing next to a blatant bad piece of Christian art and theology. Or perhaps the irony is part of the joke as well. I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. But it does raise some other important questions.
Am I a sell-out if I become a full time employee for Apple? Am I a sell-out if I quit working on an organic farm? What does it mean if I leave the margins and situate myself closer to the middle? What voice does my life then have? Or what type of voice does it have? What happens when Obama chooses Hillary to be a running mate? Etc, etc.
Again, I don’t think it’s an indictment on the guys or the Roadshow for that matter. I for one will be going to the event in Atlanta and have been looking forward to it for months. You definitely need to check the schedule and make sure you make it to the show when they hit your neighborhood. It’s going to be great and the perfect blend of satire and humor that I would use if I was promoting a book or the podcast. I think it’s brilliant and perfectly suited to the nature of what they’re doing and have been doing.
But when the outsiders become insiders, pithiness loses it’s edge and death loses its sting. Amen?
And just for fun . . . this is on the front page of Beliefnet. Notice the advertisement plus the 2 features below it. Awesome.
We should talk - I’ve struggled with some of the same questions.
what the,… when did the roadshow site end up on belief.net??
what was wrong with the simple wordpress site?
.. me and some are probably going to road trip it over to grandrapids for the tour stop. i need me some balm of gilead!
Josh,
For weeks, I’ve been thinking about writing about this because of my initial reaction to the campaign to advertise the “roadshow.” I mean no disrespect to Tony, but I think the decision to hire a particular person to “coordinate” emergent was a huge mistake in that it made one person the “voice” for emergent. There is nothing wrong with Tony’s voice [in my opinion] but the idea of a singular leader runs counter to much of the heart of the emerging church conversation. The roadshow just seems to be another step in that direction. I’m intrigued by much of what is written about the emerging church and I have grown in my understanding of church through much of the writings I have digested… but Tony’s voice, Doug’s voice, Mark’s voice [and personality and everything else that goes with that] are not the total picture.
And the tone just seems off to me. I haven’t seen the show, but I sense from the presentation of the tour a sense of sarcasm and arrogance that is incompatible with what I thought was the “generous orthodoxy” of the emerging church conversation.
Sorry for writing a post on your blog.
amen.
this isn’t an indictment about the three amigos. don’t really know the chaps.
it’s something i’ve generally been struggling about.
what are the costs of power and influence? do we all have a price?
Well, I don’t know if it’s totally fair to indict the roadshow on account of advertising they have no control over. That being said, the roadshow and whatever is motivating it is almost a parody of itself already.
And, on the other point,we all sell out every single day in many ways. I think the question revolves more around picking our battles and living graciously.
yeah i agree todd. that’s why i talked about my own personal struggle with how i wrestle with “selling out”.
Yeah, you had I particularly inspiring post about that a while back. I just wanted to throw that comment in anyway.
Dudes,
Beliefnet is the #1 site for religion and spirituality, and they expressed great interest in what we’re up to. They felt that a weakness in their coverage was the emergent/emerging movement, and they approached us about sponsoring us. They’ve also approached other emergent bloggers.
I wonder, if NBC Nightly News called to interview you, Josh, would you first ask what commercials would air before and after your interview? If Sean Hannity asked you to be on his show, would you hesitate because Fox News is owned by someone who contributed to the wrong candidate?
I appreciate that as a somewhat public figure, people will question what I do, but I also hope that you and others would give me, Doug, and Mark the benefit of the doubt before casting aspersions on our motivations.
We’re trying to do what’s right. We’re trying to have some fun, tell people about Jesus, and let them know about the hopeful message we’ve written about in our books. Hope to see you on the tour!
being emergent is cool?
i work for and live next to one of the more “popular” examples of an American emergent church and i can tell you that virtually no one in the surrounding area, excluding the congregents of this church, gives two shits about the emergent movement or what happens inside the building the church meets in when they have their services.
if anything, in seattle its very “uncool” to be associated with any part of christianity, no matter what clever or catchy name it goes by.
dont get me wrong, i love the people i know through working in the building and we have some really amazing conversations from time to time but as far as i can tell none of that is dependent upon any of these individuals involvement with the “emergent movement”.
they are cool people, emergent or no.
note of clarification: i am in no way a part of the congregation i speak of. i’m the janitor of the building they meet in.
i think i can safely say that when the roadshow comes rolling through seattle it will be what most church events in America usually are; the choir singing and preaching to the choir.
tony. i emailed you to.
i totally give you guys the benefit of the doubt. trust me i’m your biggest fan boy. i wasn’t banging on you guys as much as i was pointing to what happens when we move toward the center.
my main point was this existential crap i’m dealing with as baby is on the way. if i move toward the center does it mean i lose my voice? or does it mean my voice takes on a different nature.
i said multiple times that i give you guys the benefit of the doubt, even within the post. i said i’ll be at the event and can’t wait for it. it’s going to be a blast. i was more poking fun at beliefnet and what happens when they concentrate their power in one place. you get shitty movies and shitty ads.
if nbc called me, hell yeah, i’d do it. and it would help “my voice” find a larger audience. but at the same time, something would be lost. it wouldn’t neuter it. or render it irrelevant. or mean that i have dodgy character for being a part of it. it would just somehow be different after that relationship.
that’s my point. not that you guys suck. or that you’ve sold out. hell, i jumped on the bandwagon after it was “starting to get cool”. but rather that its a very peculiar thing to see you guys dressed up as revivalist preachers and juxtaposed up to “ways to have a more spiritual summer” and “15 love lessons from sex and the city”.
i love what you guys are doing and i think 99% of the criticisms you get are pathetic at best. which is why i wrote a whole series challenging those specific criticisms. but come one man . . . you don’t think it’s an odd thing to see the next kirk cameron splashed all over the page?
hey tony.
it does make sense for the you and the sponsors to put the info in the most public place you can find. my gripe is more from a design point of view. and i’m probably a bit of an indie snob too. recovering maybe. hopefully.
Great thoughts bro.
The funny thing for me as a Canadian is that the whole emergent thing seems to have passed us by. I find that the whole conversation and move toward the centre of emergent is something that you guys are going through. For us the emergent church never will be mainstream, in fact I am not sure anything church related could be mainstream here. The battle for us is to simply have a voice and keep going when we get no credit, or support/resources. there is something I admire about the movement in the USA, but I think the hardship for us here seems a little more like something I want to be a part of.
Yeah Josh, I agree with Tony, why are you such a jerkhole? I mean seriously.
I would be on NBC in a second, provided they paid the right amount.
And I can cast stones, I had this idea to tattoo advertisements on my arm for secular companies.
I think the problem is I hate christian shit . . . ie. Left Behind and other propaganda Christian smut films and I don’t like when a site that has some good content like belief.net gets co-opted by the christian smut market.
But what can you do, it costs money to run a site. And FOX faith pays the bills.
I am just messing with you Josh, I don’t think you are a Jerkhole, I just heard tony call you that in a phone conversation earlier this morning so I thought I would repeat it.
Oh, but no I would not be on FOX, because rupert murdoch is evil. NBC or CNN.
Tony - a slight overreaction?
I’m excited about the Roadshow and I think it’s great. I will be there and I’ll be encouraging everyone I know to come with me. But I think the questions Josh is asking are worth thinking through. What does it mean when Emergent moves from the margins/edges to a more mainstream position? Does that change the nature of the conversation? Etc. These are good questions. And we shouldn’t just write them off as whining, rejecting labels, etc.
I want to ask these questions while supporting Emergent.
Anyways, just my two cents.
Can I apologize up front if this comment comes off too harsh?
You guys kill me. Honestly, fringe is the new mainstream. Let’s be honest about fringe groups as this isn’t a condition hoarded by christianity. Even seeming indie is cool. Its all just a scene. And the ideas of marketing/market share has infiltrated the church like nobody’s business.
Hot Topic anyone? Where else can you go in a Gap kid and come out in love with The Nightmare Before Christmas. Good God…
But I digress…
The emergent movement may have been fringe, but I don’t think it was ever intended to stay that way because there is still a healthy strain of the evangelical in there. Whether George Barna’s Revolution was right or not, the church was/is losing its young people and what better way to regain market share than to embrace a fringe group since fringe is cool in the world?
While some if not many of the emergent leaders didn’t want to be some sort of marketing tool for the mainstream churches, they have become exactly that. Because the church is all about ‘fixing’ the masses, why wouldn’t emergent go mainstream to offer that fix?
That means all the trappings of marketing on the “…#1 site for religion and spirituality…” as well. I mean, Tony says it right there, Beliefnet was missing a market share. They weren’t adequately covering that segment of church.
I posted about the difference between being a revolutionary or a reformist the other day. You can read about it here if you want.
http://subversivechurch.wordpress.com/2008/06/01/reformist-or-revolutionary/
Remember, Assemblies of God was fringe at one point…
Oh, and corey and kyle… when talking about mainstream and being cool, christians aren’t talking about the normal world around us, but the pesudo-safety environment that western christanity has created to protect itself from worldly cooties. Or as my friend Chris calls it, ‘hit-and-run Christianity’. He blogs with me, you’d probably get a kick out his posts.
Later guys.
mike- good point on “the normal world” bit. thanks for putting it into perspective.
Typically there is a man (and it usually has been a man), then a movement, then monuments.
McLaren, Emergent,…..
When you start seeing statues of Brian, or Tony or Doug, etc., then you know it’s officially over.
Nice post.
Where is this “Emergent is cool” place? Certainly not in Tennessee or in much of the south. If it exists, thats nice, but I catch a lot of flak for just asking questions. They think I’m “going liberal”.
Anyway, I think one of the best things about Emergent is the diversity of people and thought and not only that, but criticism (when positive) is taken well and it doesn’t harm friendships. In fact it might even build them. It just seems like not a lot of that happens outside of Emergent, although I could be wrong. I love it! Shows a lot about you guys.
Great discussion here. It seems to me that the assumption behind this post is that Doug-Tony-Mark = Emergent. I don’t really see it that way. Sure, they are representatives and leaders of the organization, but this is the beauty I find in the emerging church. It is not defined by a central hub of elites, but rather by a diverse, amorphous, ever-evolving blob of all of us. I hope to God that we don’t find our identity in Tony Jones, Emergent or any iconic individual or organization for that matter.
I think it is great, Josh, to think what you’re thinking , trying to avoid the mindless drifting to the magnetic center of our crazy culture. I love that you’re not just pointing fingers at Emergent, but looking within yourself to evaluate life as a whole. If we all do this, putting faith in our collective will to follow the way of Jesus rather than man-made movements, we’ll be just fine–cool or not cool.
Chris,
Like John wrote a couple of comments above you… a man, a movement, a monument.
Doug, Tony, and Mark may not equal emergent to a lot of people, but to a lot more they do. You don’t see the “ever-evolving blob” being sponsored by Beliefnet or have their own road show. By the marketing efforts, Mark, Tony, and Doug do become Emergent because that is all many see.
And even if they don’t want to be at the rudder, they will be there by default because so many christians have been trained to be automatons, not independant thinkers.
And the effort to keep the movement from crashing into the rocks will be undertaken with the best of intentions, however the best course for christianity in America is in fact the rocks ahead.
Not to destroy christianity, but rather the bandwagon it has become. Movements are easy to follow and if someone is steering, then all the more reason to just sit back and enjoy the ride.
Emergent will see the same trajectory as any other movement within christianity as we know it because emergent hasn’t jumped ship, they just moved to another cabin.
This whole topic is really a great conversation. The issue really goes beyond just the web stuff, too. We have a music ministry and we are often asked to perform for various events, and sometimes, we have to ask ourselves if this event is something that we want to stump for and sometimes, we have been gotten there and found out that we were stumping for something entirely different.
In the end, you just have to hope that you aren’t misrepresented and that you don’t stump for anything that you don’t believe in, but it’s not that always easy to discern sometimes.
We did some workshops for a local Bible College and when they asked us to perform for an event where the President of the college was receiving an award from President Bush, we had to make sure that it wasn’t a conservative political event. When we did that (in a respectful manner), they ended up terminating the relationship entirely because they believed that we didn’t represent their Southern Baptist values.
I just keep reminding myself and my group that it’s God we’re working for, but it still hurts a bit.
[...] There’s been a lot of noise going around the blogosphere over the past week or so concerning Emergent Village and their going mainstream, or selling-out, or whatever and by doing so losing the veracity of their marginal and thereby prophetic voice. [...]
I know I’m super late to this conversation…unforgivably so…but…
This all sort of reminds me of a question I’ve had concerning “kingdom now” eschatology (which I can almost hear the audible gasp of “where is this coming from?”). But hear me out.
Walter Brueggemann talked about the empire seeking to live in the eternal now. It seeks to be ever present with no memory of it’s past and no hope towards the future. He then made, what I consider to be a deeply profound statement: “If the hope is to immediate then it will simply be co-opted by the empire”. He then finalizes the thought by challenging people not to manage change and create new forms to move within but rather to dream out loud…to create and imagine. He might say we are called to be “imaginer’s” of the new thing NOT managers of the new thing.
By presenting an ultra sense of “kingdom now” (which again I’m totally down with–all about–love it!) do we put ourselves in jeaparady? And maybe to go beyond the idea of escatology…by creating the new form are we simply creating a space to be co-opted by the dominate regime?
I don’t know…but something in your post tells me–yes.
[...] commented on Josh Brown’s blog about the emergent church succumbing to marketing pressure. And I can understand Josh’s [...]
[...] mentioned this before on Josh Brown’s website. That emergent is just a repackaging of the same old, same old. While I don’t necessarily [...]
[...] For President by Shane Claiborne and Chris Haw. I guess I didn’t get the memo that being Emergent was cool. Ok, so maybe Claiborne et. al. doesn’t perfectly fit the Emergent mold, but its close enough [...]