Josh, you say a lot of good and true things here. Though, if I could just suggest one possibility, (will this make me a bully?) it could be that a lot of us who do still hang around Emergent have nonetheless also “moved on with the business of living”. This, I think, is a large part of what Tony was saying in his reply to Nick. We’ve all been pretty dang busy this past decade planting churches, freeing slaves, raising families, feeding the poor, transforming churches, starting ministries, etc., etc. in addition to participating in this conversation. As I’m sure you yourself would be an example of, it is actually possible to participate in the Emergent world AND do a whole lot of other stuff at the same time. It’s not an either/or.

Anyhow, I can only speak from my personal experiences and observations, but my guess is that for a lot of us still sticking around Emergent Village, its not because we need more “therapy”. I think it’s probably for one or more of the following reasons:

1) We have friends here. These are people we love, who have helped us along very difficult points of our journey, and we’re not going to just stop hanging out with these folks. This is our family.

2) Related to the previous point, a lot of us don’t want to just go it alone as we “move on” and “live life” and try to work for the Kingdom of God. For us Emergent Village isn’t just therapy, it is also an equipping station to find friends and resources as we head back out into the world to serve.

3) Finally (and very significantly), some of us have a real passion to help others along the journey as well. We love newbies. You and I may be past the need for therapy (well, I hope I am anyway but there are dozens of people coming brand new to the conversation all the time, and if some of us won’t help them along, who will? I know you’ve said that’s not your thing right now personally, but it is my thing, and I don’t want to come across as unwelcoming or inhospitable to those who are just now joining the conversation by projecting an attitude that they’re too late to the party and I don’t want to condescend to their level.

Anyhow, I hope that’s helpful in regards to how some of us still think about our involvement with Emergent.

Peace bro’

i don’t know that i would disagree with that much of what you say (or your tone). i’ve got a few slight pushbacks. but alas i’m off to work. i’ll respond as soon as i can. but thanks for your response and tone. much more generous than my own .

Your point about the church feeling the ripples of larger cultural change and not vice versa is important. Early on, I think I had that backwards. And really, Emergent, in my opinion, is only one part of the change that is taking place in Christianity. Speaking only for myself, I think for a long time I thought we had the corner of the market on creating change in the church. It just ain’t so.

I agree with you, by and large, about “evangelical therapy.” That’s something I’ve been trying to voice since this thing first blew up. I’m deeply grateful to Emergent for that though — in retrospect I think it saved my faith. But he’s where I differ from you. I think many of us inside the conversation have gotten over our evangelical baggage and are ready to move on. So instead of just graduating and leaving altogether I’m hoping that some of us can push the conversation on time something else, in addition to what we’ve already done (because I think Mike’s point about new people is important). I guess I’m saying that I think we’re ready to evolve ourselves and move into a different phase.

At least that’s my hope.

Josh,

You are my sidekick. And if ‘the conversation’ is all about driving over the cliff a la Thelma and Louise then count me in. Because these colors do not run.

I think what you’ve said is good and agree with much of it. And as I mentioned on Nick’s post, I can relate to those feelings.

I’m genuinely curious to hear what you see yourself doing once you’ve “moved on” or what type of people you will be doing it with. I keep hearing various people saying they’ve outgrown emergent and I’m sincerely interested in what they’ve grown into.

I’m still too angsty and conflicted about my own faith and spiritual expression to have the wherewithall to think about what’s “next” hehe.

Oh and by the way, I think we all as humans take ourselves too seriously sometimes but I often wonder, if we don’t take other things seriously enough – and I think maybe some of what Mike is saying is that he takes his EV relationships very seriously and that’s really what it’s about

No worries Josh. Respond whenever (or not). BTW, I want to reemphasize my first sentence: “you say a lot of good and true things here.” I’m in agreement with the heart of what you were getting at. I’m just saying that I don’t think it’s as bad as you think. I think there are a lot of us who are already doing what you are recommending – but I still think your recommendation is a good one.

I think, Josh, you and I are in the same place. However, you might be a few steps ahead of me on somethings. In my situation I’m still trying to figure what it was all about. Maybe saying “there is no spoon” is freeing for you, but the way my mind works it goes to, “there HAS to be a spoon. if there wasn’t a spoon what the hell was all this about!” And then I go to think (maybe over thinking) the spoon and why there is no spoon.

I’m not like Mike, in the fact, he wants to see churches planted. I admire that, but I think its just promoting the problem. I have never been a part of EV because I was busy about the conversation at theOOZE. Which, was at the time, more about moving beyond the institution of church. So I don’t feel attacked as maybe EV does in this side of the conversation.

I have hope that this conversation, for whatever reason, is important. I don’t know why and I don’t know if it is as important as those of us who were around at the start thought it would be, ect. I think that is also the difference I spoke about. Mike, along with some others, came in what I call “in the middle”. So therefore our I think our lens is a little different. Not right or wrong, but different. I don’t think the voice of “this has is all wrong” should feel threatening to those who are more attached. As I’ve said else where, I think we can come together and push each other.

Ok, enough of that rambling. Here is what you share rubs me. I’ve done my time in therapy. I even left the therapist chair, a little angry, but also ok with it. I also left with a bit of unknowing and in a big transition in my life. So now I’m back, ready to find community and to be honest, in this area, the boothill of MO its hard to find those who aren’t big Rick Warren followers and the like. That stuff makes me antsy and honestly where do I find community. How do I find community that finds way to better the world around us. Maybe if I lived in a cool city this wouldn’t be a problem, but where I’m in my life right now that just isn’t possible. So, if there is no spoon, if I’m about living life (which I am), where in the hell do I find community of faith that isn’t about some new marketing plan.

I find myself nodding with you, but also feeling the tightening of the chest with other parts.

[...] said some stuff on the kind of comments that started to stack up on my post, and Josh says everyone is taking themselves too [...]

I’m genuinely curious to hear what you see yourself doing once you’ve “moved on” or what type of people you will be doing it with. I keep hearing various people saying they’ve outgrown emergent and I’m sincerely interested in what they’ve grown into.

Mak… I may not be the perfect example of someone moving on from Emergent, as I was never fully entrenched in the Emergent conversation, but I have “moved on” to a wonderful urban Mennonite church community. It is a place that was really doing a lot of what Emergent Village was/is trying to do, just earlier and with a larger denominational history/support.

I have also found it to be much more diverse that most “emergent” churches, in various ways, including racially/ethnically, socioeconomic, age, etc.

You cannot be a bully on your own blog unless you beat up people that come to your blog in the comments section. But, I don’t really know anything about anything and I am a bully. So, what do I know… I mean, beyond music, film, television, sports and good shoes for men (Birks, Fluevog, Ecco, Sanak, etc.)?

You are not a bully. You may be a dick or an asshole, but you make that known up front, like I do. Plus, I know you, like me, are harmless… and no one really listens to either one of us anyway. So follow me if you would, against your better judgment to a shiny happy place of home brewed beer, red wine, organic pork, a mixtape of Lupe Fiasco, Cobalt Season and Arcade Fire where Michael Pollan is as much a prophet and mentor as NT Wright, kids are the leaders and real debate happens with laughter while calling each other assholes and giving hugs afterwards, even if you are completely wrong about 30 Rock. I will be the leader, only in as much as I am an old fart that needs a more comfortable chair than the rest of you.

We may call our group get On Your Ass and Don’t Do Anything… or Do, We don’t care.

But, seriously I am hearing you and while I may disagree on some minute points, who the hell cares. I get what you are saying. the minute details of disagreement don’t really matter. Life is to be lived, with those we align with. We need to make space to help each other be better ____ be it people, followers of Jesus, friends, parents, children, husbands and wives, lovers, gardeners, writers, artists or servants.

I am looking for people that make me a better person, that make me fall in love with life and Jesus a bit more. That is it. And, I don’t need to know what they believe about every little thing for that to happen.

Kumbaya

Whoa…, Love this post! I mean really, really resonates loud and clear with me. Thanks for writing it! First time I’ve wandered into this blog. I love the friendly banter!

Rick Bennett’s comments had/have me ROFL!!! Good stuff bro! I especially LOVE the last two lines! Thanks for commenting.

on a more serious note. get a better pop up blocker. I have none of this trouble and I use a dell with google chrome and I am Luddite.

wait… emergent still exists?

What’s surprising to me in all of this is the amount of anger directed at Nick & Josh for simply stating their views. I get slammed for being an Episcopalian all the time and it’s just water off a duck’s back. It doesn’t affect my relationship to Jesus one whit. If something is of God, it has a way of continuing but if it’s a creation of our own devices, it will die. I learned this as an Episcopalian during this current church crisis when part of the church withered away while some parts remained. Right after the split, I penned an article for Religion Dispatches that corrected some reporting errors done about the split by Christianity Today and The New York Times. But overall, I don’t feel the need to defend the institution that’s been an integral part of my DNA (my late father was an Episcopal priest) . Rather I seek out those pockets in the church where I can play and feed myself that way.

Re: Beliefnet – I am soooo glad the God Politics blog moved to their own server – when they were hosted by Beliefnet (the GP bloggers were not paid BTW), I lost track of the number of times someone emailed me to complain that when they tried to access one of my postings, they got a freakin’ ad. This wasn’t a pop-up ad but they’d have to click on a link to skip to the ad in order to read the post. That was particularly annoying when I’d be mailing links to agnostics and atheists I’ve met who wanted to dialogue and they’d be forced to click through an add for a spiritual book that turned their stomach (and often turned mine instead). It’s fantastic than when someone clicks on a link they get the actual blog postings. I cut bloggers slack for having ads off to the side though I’ve heard from bloggers they don’t work. Another option might be a paypal button so people who want to support your ministry can do that.

BTW-there is no money in religious blogging we all know that. But whenever one gets paid to post, there’s always an incentive to post provocative stuff that will boost the number of hits and buzz instead of engaging in real conversation. Along those lines, one of my pet peeves are people that don’t engage with readers on their own personal blogs. On a side note, the real money in publishing isn’t in royalties, pre-financial crash it was in the advances. Most books don’t make back their advances (hence no royalties) but back when some folks were churning out multiple books a year, one could make a living writing books especially if you added those who were able to sore multiple speaking/consulting deals. Post-crash, it’s all up in the air as the book publishing world (and every other industry) retools itself moving forward.

First thing, a rule to live by. Women, and more importantly, you wife, are/is always right. Seriously, Anna and I have been screaming this shit from the mountain tops, well actually under our breaths with a few choice words, since this little emergent frenzy started. While I do agree that it helped you and Nick process so much and feel like you had a place, which I forever will be greatful for, I knew shit was going down. Always right, remember that.

Becky – I don’t think any of us were “angry” with Nick and Josh. I know I wasn’t. If we’re at the point where honest disagreements and lively conversation are being interpreted as “anger” and hostile attacks, then maybe we all need to get slightly thicker skins. As a satirist, I would think you’d understand that better than anyone.

Jules – you’re definitely right that you and I are coming at this conversation from different places and with different goals. And I agree, it’s just different, not necessarily better or worse. However, if I could make one suggestion, I’m not sure I came “in the middle” (as if there was a chronological progression from your views to mine), so much as I just came from a different stream of the conversation. As many have noted, there are lots of different streams to this conversation, and I don’t think any particular one has much of a claim to chronological superiority. For instance, while I came to theOoze in 2003 and you had already been there for a while, I actually started this journey back in 1997/98 in college where I was interacting with postmodern philosophy and what was then-called “Gen-X” or “Postmodern” ministry. I’m sure others here probably go back further than that with various strands of the conversation. At any rate, my only point is that perhaps it’s not so much that “first there were the anti-ICers, and then their conversation got co-opted by all those youth pastor/church planter emergents.” Instead I think there has always been an anti-IC stream and an “emergent” stream, and lots of other streams too (e.g. neomonastic, social justice, alt.worship, post-liberal, post-colonial, ancient/future, etc.), and we’re all intermingling and learning from each other. We don’t all share the exact same emphases or passions, but that’s part of the fun, and what makes it a “conversation” in the first place.

Just my .02…

Mike- I apologize for making it sound there is a “superiority”. It wasn’t what I was trying to say. More to in speaking on in the different voices and how they seemed to change at different moments. I apologize if that came out wrong.

Thanks brother!

Jules

No worries Jules. I didn’t think you were meaning to imply “superiority”. I agree, there are different voices, and different ones can become more prominent at different times, though as far as I can tell most of the various streams of the conversation seem to be still going strong.

Mike – If enough of my buds tell me that I sound more pissed off than prophetic, then I know that somewhere I must have crossed that line between satirizing a subject and just being mean.

then maybe we all need to get slightly thicker skins.

Or maybe the tone needs to change at times…

I’m glad Leslie played the “I told you so” card first. I stared at this blue comment patch for a long time wondering if I should say something. But I called this a year ago on your Beliefnet post. I still stand by my comment that Emergent (then) was on the same ship, but just changed cabins. The larger issue was the ship (read: institution) was headed for the rocks and that its destruction was a good and necessary thing.

As quick example would be Martin Luther. What started out as an attempt at a conversation within the institution of Catholicism, became more than a conversation and a movement. Why?

Because the institution is a failed human creation. You cannot fix something that is inherently flawed. Therefore, what Luther created was new. Even still, it was not perfect and we are now having that same converation within the institution that was created so many years ago in Germany.

In isn’t an easy realization for many, but it is one that is necessary.

-mike

Hey Josh- I dig allot of what your saying but Ive got some pushback if that cool. Perhaps you were putting too much stock in Emergent from the get go. I know what you mean and I think we all had certain hopes and asperations for Emergent but most of it didnt work out the way we thought it would……DUH! This is a “friendship” that often uses certain aspects of Postmodern Philosophy as a valid expression of the “christian faith”. Deconstruction is ALWAYS on the move. It can never stop. EV is in the similar veign. It is not ours to own and the leadership has been decentrelized. I like what ZACH said to your partner Nick on their video chat recently when He talked about how it seemed that Nick was wanting to measure the success of EV in the same way that a megachurch deals with their marketing and research. The fact that Emergent seems to be crumbling apart is probably one of the best things that could be happening to it, you know? I really enjoy listening to your podcast and I love your videos on youtube. I got to meet your buddy Troy Bronsink at the Emergent Southeast gathering that was held at Disciples Fellowship in Bham Al. Although I did get lost in yalls podcast when you interviewed him or whatever…..I still dont have a frickin clue what an “artifact” is, maybe im overthinkin it! Also, How can you say that Avril Lavigness is the act of being a follower? Couldnt someone listen to Avril lavigne and find some truth and maybe even some beauty in there? Im not saying that this person would be similar to u or I, but how can we just randomly write off certain musicians as being “BAD ART” across the board? Isnt the interpretaion of Art reletive? You dont seem like a ridgid fundamentalist so how can you say that good art and bad art is so simply catagorized?

My beef with Emergent is Tony’s flaunting of his adulterous affair. At the recent C21 gathering, Tony and his girlfriend were seen together, while Tony is legally married to Julie Jones. Pagitt condoned the whole affair and covered it up.