Down, Down I Go, Where This Stop, God Only Knows.

I think that’s a limerick. Who knows though.

I’ve been thinking a lot lately about just how much my life has changed in a few short years. I like to think most of it’s for the better, but I suppose it’s open to interpretation by those on the outside.

I hate even talking about this stuff sometimes because it either makes me seem whiny and nihilistic or that I’m just to focused on the negatives and sound like an ass. I promise you I’ve attempted to be more generous in my approach and instead of using the blogging medium to beat people over the head with it, to instead share personal stories and struggles as a way to inspire. I’m not sure if the latter is any better than just being negative all the time as the blogosphere has certain limitations with inter-personal relationship, which is really the only true and lasting way to effect change. That is to say it begins personally and relationally.

So just know that when I share my thoughts on this, I’m not accusing anyone but me. My accusations and provocative words (although they are more teeth than bite) begin and end with me. Please don’t take it as me sitting on a high horse like a pompous ass. I’m no prophet. Although I play one on TV.

But like I said . . . I’ve been thinking about where I’ve come from. Whether I’ve devolved into this or evolved into this is something I’m still yet unsure of. But all I know is that over the last couple of years my life has taken on more and more of a downward trajectory. And honestly, that scares me sometimes. It’s very unsettling. To go from where I was 3 or 4 years ago when nothing bothered me to being where I am today where everything bothers me . . . well, needless to say it’s worrisome to me. Because as I follow Jesus further and further down this sketchy little narrow road, it seems like more and more is asked of me. Or perhaps not asked, but at least presented to me.

I remember even a year ago, sitting outside on our deck wondering when exactly I’d get off this downward elevator down the rabbit hole and when it would all stop and I would just settle in somewhere. I remember thinking then, where am I not willing to go today that I might be willing to go a year from now. It seems like every week, every month, every year . . . I find myself further and further down this damn rabbit hole. Chasing after some wild vision of Jesus and a kingdom.

I don’t know. I suppose like with everything I’m taking it way more seriously than I need to. Which I’m sure gives the appearance of bipolar or depression. Although I’m almost sure that isn’t the case.    But I just know that I keep going further and further downward. Now I know this talk of “downward mobility” or “opting out” is ripe with all kinds of problems for people who aren’t firmly situated in affluence. To talk about downward mobility with someone who is already down in poverty sounds foolish. There aspirations are firmly rooted in moving up the social and economic ladder. For me to talk about my need to move down, no doubt seems like a spoiled yuppie trying to earn some street cred. I get that. I really do. But I wonder what trajectory the christian life is to have? Downward or upward?

I think of some of my house church friends, Britt, the Cash Money’s, the D10s, and others who have chosen to live intentionally with each other. Sharing a house, living space, and food. This is a downward trajectory by almost all standards.

I think of friends who have gone off to live or travel in other countries, seeking to experience life in a whole different realm. This is a downward trajectory by almost all standards.

I know I probably tend to overemphasize the economic and political stuff way too much. But I think there is something to be said that when you’re living the way of Jesus and practicing the kingdom of God where you are, that the shape and tone of your life inevitably begins to take on a more downward focus.

Meaning you give away more of your time and money to help others. You think creatively about how to best steward your resources. You begin to imagine new possibilities for how you live your life. You rent a house together and do life as family.

To put a really sharp point on it, I just don’t think I can be a follower of Jesus and continue in the status quo. Or worse yet, continue to move up the ladder. I know you can probably find examples in the story of God. And you can probably even convince me that you’re right with a good enough argument. And I’m not trying to demonize those who are moving up the social and economic ladders. But at some point . . . less has to become more. I know Joseph lived as royalty in Egypt’s palaces but he didn’t sit comfortably in his affluence. And even further, he didn’t choose that way of life. The king did.

Long story short, my point is that it scares the hell out of me what my life is going to look like a year from now. 10 years from now. 25 years from now. What am I saying to myself today that I’ll never change or that I “won’t go that far” only to eventually end up there? How deep is this freaking hole?

I have a hunch that we’re stumbling down the right path. In fact, I’m pretty sure of it. But it doesn’t make it any less scary. Or any less unsettling. I’ll admit, there are days when I long for the status quo. There are days when I look at our 1500 sq. feet, 3 bedroom, 2 bath house and realize that this is as good as it is ever going to get and I can be tempted to be envious.

Envious of safety . . . comfort . . . stability . . . security . . . freedom. I can see why moving further and further up the ladder becomes an enticing thing when you can solidify these things more. But there has to be a better way. It gives me great hope that we’re not the only ones.

The Problems of Deism & It’s Possibilities: All Things Work Together For The Good.

The Overview, Some Problems, A Google Chat With Eric, Praying For Rain

Ok. So I guess I’m a bad guy because I don’t believe God “causes” events in the world. I don’t think God is sitting in some big gold chair with a Risk game board on his coffee table, debating with the rest of the Trinity where to attack next.

A tsunami in the South Pacific? A hurricane along the Gulf? Famine in Africa? Nuclear tension between India and Pakistan? Perhaps a flood in the Midwest and an earthquake in South America for good form? Killing our family with cancer and heart attacks? All so that we’ll learn to trust him? What will he think of next in his boredom?

I know I’m prone to exaggeration/extremes when making my points. It’s a rather immature way to argue and one that is not very healthy in the long run. So I fully recognize that. But when I think about a God who causes events to happen in the world, I get this creeped out vision of Mickey Mouse in Fantasia waving his wand around bringing things to life. A smile here, a cackle there. Doing it with half bored amusement and half with a diabolical smile.

I’m just not comfortable with a God who causes pain in order to get people to trust him, creates catastrophe in order to get people to love him, creates destruction in order to bring life, causes death in order to bring hope.

I don’t think this robs God of his relationality or the scope of his incarnation.

So in many ways, I think God created everything and then was, for the most part, hands off. He intervenes at times, enters into the mess at others, and is in conversation with his people and answers them as well sometimes. But I believe the life and death of Jesus were catalytic enough to effect change into humanity in a scope that I don’t think we are prepared to embrace. If the life and death of Jesus mean what he said they meant, then everything has truly changed. And we are indeed new creations. And we are indeed the change agents in the world. And we are indeed to be the change we won’t to see in the world.

Again . . . God is not hand’s off at this point. But rather he’s not a micro-manager. He gives us way more credit than we give ourselves.

Here’s a comment I left in yesterday’s post:

i’m not prepared to throw away prayer. or to dismiss it’s formative power. so i agree it’s a legitimate (even primary) form vehicle for communication and relationship between creation and creator. my proposal is that it is much more of an inward/global act, in that it is humanity in conversation with god, not attempting to align god to humanity, but instead align ourselves with god’s visions and dreams for the world. in that way it is individualistic so that through it we begin to see god’s dreams for the world. so it is inward transformation. at which point it shifts and becomes local and global. if transformation has truly happened and we are getting a bigger and bigger picture of god’s dreams for the worlds then we begin to act and “be the change we want to see in the world” instead of relying on god to bail us out.

again . . . this is not to say that god doesn’t, can’t, or won’t bail us out. but rather his direct intervention is not or should not be the first or primary goal of prayer. rather prayer is the medium in which we align to god. when we beg god to intervene without our inner transformation and without us becoming the change and solution, we are seeking to align god to our ways, agenda, etc. at which point he becomes the commercial, consumerist, santa claus god to which we bring christmas lists.

nick made a good point the other day when he said he’s fasting from “asking god” for anything. while i don’t know that i’m willing to never ask god for anything, i think this is a useful perspective for us to realize that prayer is not always about asking but rather becoming.

in this light, prayer becomes much more relational, holy, transformative, spiritual, disciplined, etc.

Here’s my point . . . as roundabout and obscure as it may be.

I have a hunch that God is not controlling. That there is freedom in our choice and a freedom of will. I also believe that God is loving and caring and relational. This is not to take away or minimize the Old Testament, but I believe Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God. And the narrative of scripture takes on that evolutionary nature of progressing throughout history so that the life and death of Jesus is the ultimate expression of God. Fulfilling the old way doing things and ushering in a new way. Not temporarily. Not as a pregnant pause before some big and violent Second Coming.

This is my starting point. It’s the lens through which I see everything. Perhaps I’m wrong and perhaps I’ve got foggy glasses. Or I’m even wearing the wrong ones.

But as long as I’m wearing this particular lens . . . its going to be awfully hard to convince me that God is a controlling puppet master. That God is a micro-managing CEO. That God is a disconnected being waiting for us to say the right words, get enough people to say them with us, and for us to collectively mean it enough . . . so that he gives us what we want. Or so that he holds off the next coming disaster that he was going to create to make us trust him.

We’re not game pieces on a game board. And God is certainly not a Santa Claus that gives us what we want and aligns to our dreams and wishes.

Rather God is relational without being a dictator. God is involved without being a hyper-interventionist. And God is interested with how we are going to allow his life, death, and resurrection shape us into a community that becomes the change we want to see in the world. Instead of relying on some pre-modern, blood-thirsty, tribal deity who bails us out of the messes that we create.

He’s there. He’s available. And who knows . . . from time to time he might even lend a helping hand. But perhaps we are the ones we have been waiting for.

Listening: Veneer by Jose Gonzalez

The Problems of Deism & It’s Possibilities: Praying For Rain.

The Overview, Some Problems, A Google Chat With Eric

It’s been a couple of weeks since I’ve felt like contributing anything else to my thoughts on Deism. I think I’ll give a few more thoughts and talk about what got me thinking about this in the first place. I had a healthy conversation with Seth about this a couple of weeks ago after a Sunday Vespa drive down to Decatur. He pushed back with some insightful thoughts and I gave my feedback. I wish I could have transcribed that conversation because it feels like such a better way to share than blogging about it. But I’m going to do my best to recreate it as best as I can.

It all started with this talk of praying for rain due to the drought in Northern Georgia. I’m not sure why, but the whole idea just bothered me. And I guess I started thinking about prayer in relation to natural and supernatural events.

If you aren’t aware, Georgia is in the middle of a pretty big drought. Bad enough that the entire metro of Atlanta might run out of water in a couple of months. So kind of a big deal. In response to this escalating problem that is only getting worse by the day, many people have been begging us to pray for rain. The governor has run a few commercials, as well as hosted a “prayer day”. Many people have begun placing signs in their yards and businesses are using their marquees to urge people to do the same.

Now I suppose these are good thoughts by good people. But it really bothers me. Perhaps I’m the one with all of the issues. But I find it such an odd thing to beg God for intervention.

I’m not saying that God doesn’t intervene into the world. The incarnation kind of proves that he does. I’m also not saying that God hasn’t intervened throughout the course of history at the request (and on the behalf) of his people. God has intervened before and will in all likelihood intervene again. Who am I to say what God can and can’t do?

But I would like to raise some questions (some questions that I scratched the surface with here).

Why do we use God like a Get Out of Jail Free Card? Meaning, we get ourselves into this mess with our lack of stewardship, over-consumption, and poor planning . . . and then we expect God to get us out of it? It might be one thing if we just realized how much of a role we played in screwing up and then asked God to bail us out. While I still probably wouldn’t be on board, I could at least give you the benefit of the doubt. But to pretend like we have had nothing to do with the problem and then expect God to fix the problem? There’s a big disconnect there for me.

And what about when it comes to rain? So we pray that God will make it rain here in North Georgia? Well every effect has a cause. And if it rains here, somewhere else in the world is going to be effected as well. So what if we’re praying for rain here but someone else is praying for no rain and sun? Is it really that simple as God counting up each side who ever has the most (numbers or earnest) wins and God grants their request like a magic genie?

I think we give God to much credit sometime. Maybe we are not just the problem, but perhaps we are the solution as well. Perhaps instead of asking God to bail us out, he actually wants us to figure out the systemic issues that we created that caused the problem in order to fix the root issues instead of just expecting God to treat the symptoms.

Perhaps that’s a good way to describe my frustration. I’m ok with an interventionist God who helps fix “the roots” but I’m not ok with an interventionist God who fixes the symptoms.

And I’m just musing here, but I think the connection between a Get Out of Jail Free/Santa Claus God and a God who causes events in the world to happen is rather close. The whole “all things work together for the good” God. I’m thinking that those who have a strong belief in this type of God who causes events (drought, hurricanes, tsunamis, etc) to happen as a sort of weeding out or a test of some sorts, will probably have a pretty strong belief in a God who intervenes to pick up the pieces when we shatter the mirror.

But I’ll talk about that tomorrow.

Listening: Lon Gisland EP by Beirut

The Problems of Deism & It’s Possibilities: A Google Chat With Eric.

The Overview, Some Problems

Update: I was unaware that Nick is hosting a rather robust conversation over on his post about pretty much the same thing. Part of the problem of reading blogs via RSS is that you miss out on the comments. Thanks to Andrew for the tip.

I’m not really sure how this conversation got started with Eric and I this morning. But it basically turned into a 15 minute chat conversation. To be fair, I didn’t give Eric near enough time to respond while I was hammering my thoughts out and monopolizing the conversation. And my thoughts are no where near absolute. They would barely pass as “theological” at all. But they were on the fly and I think they are a pretty good indication of what I think are the positive elements behind a deistic framework. Prayer was sort of the main analogy or theme that drove the thoughts. If you’re not used to reading a chat transcript, then I apologize in advance. I tried to clean it up as best as I could so that it was easy to read. Enjoy.

Josh Brown: i’m just a deist when it comes to prayer
Josh Brown: prayer is for us
Josh Brown: and not for god
Josh Brown: it’s an internal centering device for outward change
Eric: whens your next deist blogasm
Josh Brown: tomorrow
Josh Brown: i’ve got a blog about adium first
Josh Brown: naturally
Eric: naturally
Eric: so what’s the reasoning on how prayer doesn’t effect god whatsoever
Josh Brown: just a hunch
Eric: nice
Josh Brown: its conversational, i just think it’s lame to think that we can get god to do what we want
Josh Brown: i think god enjoys the conversation and wants us to have it, but not so that he can here what we want (which he supposedly already knows) so that he can grant it or not grant it
Josh Brown: he just needs us to say it aloud to him so that it counts and he can do something about it
Josh Brown: kinda weak basis of prayer
Josh Brown: makes prayer seem sort of plain
Eric: is that consistent with your experience, previously, currently, or otherwise?
Josh Brown: yes
Josh Brown: well, honestly, most of my prayers
Josh Brown: following the 95% rule of course (95% of the world is “inept” at life)
Josh Brown: for myself and others
Josh Brown: prayer is never a centering device to align our hearts with god’s dreams for the world
Josh Brown: instead it’s a christmas list of things we need or want
Josh Brown: so and so is sick
Josh Brown: i need a raise
Josh Brown: i need a wife
Josh Brown: etc, etc
Josh Brown: its a speaking device used to align god with us
Eric: so how is that an issue with prayer and not an issue with selfishness and individualism
Josh Brown: its one and the same
Josh Brown: i don’t have an issue with prayer
Josh Brown: i like prayer
Josh Brown: i use it
Josh Brown: i pray daily
Josh Brown: outwardly and inwardly
Eric: sure, unless your not selfish and individualistic
Josh Brown: thats the thing though, i try not to make it selfish and individualistic
Josh Brown: but global and sacrificing
Josh Brown: i hesitate to use the word
Josh Brown: but it should work like meditation does
Josh Brown: except instead of praying to the “self”
Josh Brown: you’re in conversation with god
Josh Brown: and as you meditate on god’s dreams and heart, your heart begins to change
Josh Brown: this is the power of prayer
Josh Brown: that you become in line with god
Josh Brown: but that’s somewhat deistic in that god is not going to do what we tell him or ask him
Josh Brown: he’s not on a rope
Josh Brown: he’s removed from the process and its up to us to determine the middle part of the story
Eric: so how is this any different than what I’ve heard at least 10 or 15 times in churches
Eric: ahh
Eric: the deist part
Josh Brown: yes
Josh Brown: set up my friend
Josh Brown: it’s all about the setup
Eric: well played
Josh Brown: prayer is the example
Josh Brown: thats where deism makes sense
Eric: so how does that reconcile with abraham and exodus pleading with God to change his mind
Eric: would God have changed his mind if they didn’t pray?
Eric: exodus = moses
Josh Brown: 1 example doesn’t outweigh the other 20
Eric: it’s not 1
Josh Brown: but i agree
Eric: its 2
Josh Brown: i’m not saying that god doens’t interfere or intervene
Josh Brown: that’s shaping god into a purely natural form
Josh Brown: which is what the jesus seminar wants to do
Josh Brown: who am i to say that god can’t intervene and heal someone
Josh Brown: or perform a miracle in someone’s life
Josh Brown: but it’s also a miracle when there is an inward change from an inward conversation between god and man known as prayer
Josh Brown: miracles aren’t always supernatural
Josh Brown: i think when you have a view of an interventionist god who steps in and everytime we screw up gives us a hell of a big pass
Josh Brown: if god steps in and fixes things every time we jack them up, then whats the point in trying to make the world a better place. we can just sit back and pray to god to fix things
Josh Brown: or wait until the rapture and the trumpet and the clouds and stuff
Eric: so your confident that if he doesn’t intervene, your actions will have a net positive effect?
Josh Brown: no
Josh Brown: but there’s a dynamic tension between my choices
Josh Brown: i guess this is just the natural jump for me in my anti-reformed perspective
Eric: but josh
Eric: yesterday was reformation day
Josh Brown: if god is ultra involved in humanity controlling the puzzle pieces
Eric: oct 31
Josh Brown: well played cowboy
Josh Brown: its just how funny some one prays for rain for a drought while someone else prays for the sun to end the flood
Josh Brown: both are praying against each other
Josh Brown: but both give thanks to god if there prayer “works”
Josh Brown: could it just be that god is detached from the weather and that sometimes it floods and sometimes theres a drought
Josh Brown: that’s a much more holistic view of sin and the “fall”
Josh Brown: i think
Eric: a far greater example
Eric: would be the civil war
Josh Brown: nice point on the civil war
Josh Brown: how the hell do i save this chat
Josh Brown: this is the blog post
Eric: lol

The Problems of Deism & It’s Possibilities: Some Problems.

The Overview

Let’s go ahead and get the problems out of the way so I can talk about a few possibilities tomorrow. For the most part these should be pretty obvious.

Problem 1: God is mechanistic and industrial
This was covered in the overview but God ultimately gets shaped into the God of the Industrial age. He makes things out of raw materials and uses them for his own uses. This detaches God from creation but I think the larger problem is that it makes God out into some sort of indiscriminate force that creates things only to “use” them. God is a clock-maker who makes clocks for tools. Creation then become arbitrary, faceless tools that God uses for his own fancy. While most conservatives would denounce this deistic God in definition, in practice many have a deistic view of God and creation. Their God is rational, mechanistic, natural, scientific, cold, calculating, concise, deterministic, etc.

Problem 2: God is not personal
This is a huge problem for me. If God is not relational then what is the point of God? God in essence (the triune relationality) is intimately connected to humanity and humanity is intimately connected to God. But for the Deist God is neither relational or connected to humanity. God is but an architect and creation is nothing more than the natural result of his architecture. No emotion. No care. So a faith without a personal God becomes nothing more than a black and white moral code.

Problem 3: There is no supernatural
I have the least amount of problems with this one although it is still admittedly a problem for me. And I’ll hopefully explain why it’s not a major problem for me tomorrow. But there has to be some room for supernatural. If I/we can explain God, then “it” isn’t a God but rather a construction from the mind of man. This is why there has to be some supernatural elements to my faith. And this is why the broader presuppositions and starting points of the historical Jesus movement only go so far for me. In the end, they reject most/all supernatural elements in the same way that fundamentalists embrace most/all supernatural elements.

This will do for now. Anyone else want to jump in and share your problems with Deism.